Why learn music?

[bassbully]

Originally Posted by Clef_de_fa

But the quality of music was way higher during that time. Now you can do 8th note in 4/4 for 4 minutes on bass and with chords on guitar and call that music made by and music illeterate ... then you listen to Chopin who wasn't formally trained ... it is another game completly ...

Since classical musician when the direction of serialism and the jazz in the bebop and freejazz ... the quality of music really declined fast, it went dumber and dumber and more and more marketed like any fast food would be.

So yes I think that the more you know musical theory the more you will be inclined to write music that use more complex stuff. It open your mind !!!

Well for me I will take the 8th note 4/4 for 4 minutes anyday.. ala..AC/DC, they rock and have made Millions doing so..Choplin

Music is about taste and I never wonder after hearing a piece of music if the person or persons who played it know theory or not...could care less. If its good its good

[electracoyote]

I resisted formal music education for literally decades.

Then I grew curious and took piano, since I had little keyboard experience and I figured I would be challenged with learning a new instrument and formal music simultaneously.

Smartest move I ever made, even though I was in my late 30's.

Anything one can understand and do well can only be augmented and possibly enhanced by understanding the formal written language of that discipline. Name almost any discipline, and this is true.

I just had a student ask me if we could abandon the method book because he finds the songs less than exciting (it's the Friedland series, and the songs are about as good as it gets with this kind of method book). I flatly told him that we will not abandon the method book. All my students age 16 and younger are required to learn to sight read in standard notation if they want me to be their teacher. I explained to him that it was like asking his math teacher to abandon the math text because he didn't care about two cars leaving from Detroit and Denver at 3PM, heading toward each other, one going 45MPH and the other going 65MPH, and the problem didn't thrill him. Not gonna happen.

[4dog]

If ya want to dig a ditch ya gotta know how to use a shovel,, but,, ya dont have to know how to exactly make a shovel,, someone does,, but you dont.

[lfmn16]

Not every player who has studied theory is better than every player who didn't. And everyone has a story about a killer musician they know that doesn't know squat about theory, altought I believe there are far more stories than actual cases.

However, if you don't know theory or how to read, it's not possible to know how you would use it, that you wouldn't use it or that it wouldn't benefit you.

I might not be a better player than someone else just because I have studied music but I am certainly a better play than I would have been if i hadn't studied music.

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by lfmn16

However, if you don't know theory or how to read, it's not possible to know how you would use it, that you wouldn't use it or that it wouldn't benefit you.

I might not be a better player than someone else just because I have studied music but I am certainly a better play than I would have been if i hadn't studied music.

Exactly. A monster player who doesn't learn formal music is still a monster player, and until he makes the effort, he'll never know if it could benefit him or not. And it's a purely personal choice, no one should ever feel guilty or self-conscious about not taking lessons, especially if they are progressing in a meaningful way.

But you and I, well, there are at least two of us on this thread who do feel formal study and application has made us better musicians.

[Mark Reccord]

My biggest regret as a musician at 40 is that I resisted learning theory/reading and that I refused to learn to play piano when I was a kid like my parents thought I should. I am a pretty good player and I have a really good ear but I feel that I have limited myself by not doing those things. I certainly don't think that understanding theory would have had a negative effect on my playing though I did think that when I was 18.

I must have been a frustrating student. I took classical guitar for a couple of years. I'd learn a piece, memorize it and then when I went to the next lesson, play it from memory and not even look at the sheet music. I remember my instructor saying that he thought it was awesome that I could do that and that I should develop it but that it was also important to be able to read for numerous reasons. I disregarded that advice to my eventual detriment.

Sadly, I also experienced a music teacher in high school who was vehemently opposed to ear training, which may well have influenced my decisions around that time.

I've since learned a good bit of theory and/or put names to concepts that I already understood from experience but my reading is still spotty at best.

[hrodbert696]

Originally Posted by Febs

You make some great points, and I think that your music-as-a-conversation analogy is valid as long as you recognize that it only describes a subset of the ways that people make music.

Sure - I guess I left that implied in what I said about writing novels and learning philosophy. Not all music is jam sessions and bar bands. I guess my point is that some people are novelists and others just like telling stories at parties. Musically, I'm happy to tell stories at parties. I have all the respect in the world for novelists, but I've never felt the need to write one myself.

[DeadHeadSF]

Originally Posted by Axtman

Why are "musicians" so resistant to learning music? I know many people that are involved with music in bands that can't read standard notation an don't know a thing about theory.

I've wondered myself how this works. I've been a musician since I was a kid - learned to read and learned theory, harmony, and composition in my early teens and throughout high school. Since then, I've encountered so many musicians who simply don't have a clue - they just play by ear. But a lot of them are GOOD at it. I guess they're just naturals and don't need the theory. Learning would open up so many new doors, I think.

There is a catch, though: I started out as a classical musician (cellist) and composer. I had to unlearn a lot of rules (or at least know when not to use them) when it came to playing other styles of music. My first attempts at improvisation always ended up sounding very "classical" - it took a while to learn how to loosen up and not worry about playing a wrong note once in a while... then ultimately to learn how to USE wrong notes or whatever. If you do it right, you can make it fit.

At any rate, theory, reading, etc... may not be *required* to play, but these are very basic tools of our trade. You can expand so much by learning a bit of the underlying structure.

[guitardefector]

Originally Posted by eddododo

Its alot like being illiterate.. Its not necessary to read to communicate, but I would say that the gorgeous subtleties of hemingways language would be lost on the illiterate..

Theres always exceptions of course, but reading music and understanding the science is an invaluable tool... there are a lot of guys who are super talented and can play really well by ear, but I, for example, play well by ear, but also read like a monster and play non-intuitive/ atomal music by ear, thanks to understanding the.language and science

+1. You took the words out of my mouth. You can also be a great orator and lively conversationalist, but if you want to write it down or go to college, well, that's the end of the line for you.

[fraublugher]

The title of this thread is hard on the ear , if you can't see/hear that ....then...

shenanigans.

[Groove Doctor]

"Too much knowledge leads to confusion;
too many guitar lessons leads to Jazz-Fusion."

(Lyrics to a song by the band T.I.S.M.).

[phillybass101]

My pet peeve about this is exactly this. The one's who make such a big deal about it are the ones who are into it and doing it. Not the guy or gal that can play and is just enjoying himself. Ok, for sure leave serious music for serious musicians. I PREFER to enjoy music and enjoy playing it at the level I want to. You have your standards and I have mine. leave mine alone and keep yours to yourself. And this is from a guy who is actually studying. In January I start lessons with Internationally known jazz bassist, performer, artist, and educator Tyrone Brown. I still feel that it is to each his own. When someone who knows more than you keeps preaching to you about what you need to learn or try to make you feel like you are less than them because of it leave them alone and tell them to leave you alone and stop hatin becasue you can play with less education. For all of the gigs I've done and the compliments I recieved from the audience not one of them asked me about my musical training and background. I've seen and played with many schooled musicians and IMO they've forgotten how to have fun, and most always do take the fun out of playing. This is just my experience and for me to go through all those years of training just to play in essence covers is laughable. I can recall playing with cats who knew more than me and encouraged me to study more etc. Probably good advice but in the back of my mind I felt like they couldn't really accept the fact that they had been through all of that stuff and I was on the same bandstand with them and really getting down. Not once do I say to them, with all that education you're on the same bandstand with me, what's up with that. Was it really worth it? Again I am not arguing the benefits of either path this is just my opinion. After awhile all these supposed super bass cats with their advanced studies and knowledge sound and play alike and it's getting pretty boring to me. Now, I am just a weekend warrior with a well paying day job. If I had to depend on my bass playing for a living I would pursue as much education etc. as I can as you need to have those job skills to get and keep work. I can understand that. However, if your goal is to just play and have fun and play on the weekends in a bar/grill circuit, all that training is not necessary. I'm proof of that.

[guitardefector]

Originally Posted by phillybass101

My pet peeve about this is exactly this. The one's who make such a big deal about it are the ones who are into it and doing it. Not the guy or gal that can play and is just enjoying himself. Ok, for sure leave serious music for serious musicians. I PREFER to enjoy music and enjoy playing it at the level I want to. You have your standards and I have mine. leave mine alone and keep yours to yourself. And this is from a guy who is actually studying. In January I start lessons with Internationally known jazz bassist, performer, artist, and educator Tyrone Brown. I still feel that it is to each his own. When someone who knows more than you keeps preaching to you about what you need to learn or try to make you feel like you are less than them because of it leave them alone and tell them to leave you alone and stop hatin becasue you can play with less education. For all of the gigs I've done and the compliments I recieved from the audience not one of them asked me about my musical training and background. I've seen and played with many schooled musicians and IMO they've forgotten how to have fun, and most always do take the fun out of playing. This is just my experience and for me to go through all those years of training just to play in essence covers is laughable. I can recall playing with cats who knew more than me and encouraged me to study more etc. Probably good advice but in the back of my mind I felt like they couldn't really accept the fact that they had been through all of that stuff and I was on the same bandstand with them and really getting down. Not once do I say to them, with all that education you're on the same bandstand with me, what's up with that. Was it really worth it? Again I am not arguing the benefits of either path this is just my opinion. After awhile all these supposed super bass cats with their advanced studies and knowledge sound and play alike and it's getting pretty boring to me. Now, I am just a weekend warrior with a well paying day job. If I had to depend on my bass playing for a living I would pursue as much education etc. as I can as you need to have those job skills to get and keep work. I can understand that. However, if your goal is to just play and have fun and play on the weekends in a bar/grill circuit, all that training is not necessary. I'm proof of that.

Great response, Philly. You're right. I'm all for learning to sight read, but I realize there are lots of highly talented individuals out there who haven't learned yet. Academics tend to do this a lot as well with people who never finished high school but are highly successful and highly paid in their 'degree-less' job or career. Maybe it stems from envy? Theory vs. pragmatism.

[lwknives]

People keep making the implication that you cant write complex, interesting or intriguing music without theory, I would say this is very false. I taught myself as much theory as I could last summer, I learned a lot and Im glad that I spent the time learning what I did, but the material that I have written is above my level of theory knowledge. I have searched the web trying to find the theory behind what I have written but cant find anything that is readily available or understandable to me. Im sure its out there but it isnt something covered in first year theory classes. I think that with another year of studying I could learn enough to figure out what Im doing but I would rather spend that time writing tunes or working on my chops.
I haven't seen anyone on here say that theory takes away from your creativity or feeling (obviously it doesn't). I do know that I dont use the theory I know to write music. When I do my music sounds boring.

[jive1]

This is the best reason I have ever heard for learning to read music: If you can't read, you will be limited to music that you have heard before. Compared to a language, you will only be able to tell stories that you have heard before. Even if you could read the chord charts, you still don't have the full story, just the main plot.

I'm not a great sight reader. Actually, I'm better at sight reading on the keyboard than on bass. But, I can read. The nice thing is that I can look at a chart and get an idea of the melody, chord changes, tempo, and feel without hearing a single note (provided that it's a good chart).

As far as theory is concerned, the most practical reason to learn it is to make it easier to work with other musicians.

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by lwknives

People keep making the implication that you cant write complex, interesting or intriguing music without theory, I would say this is very false. I taught myself as much theory as I could last summer,

I do know that I dont use the theory I know to write music. When I do my music sounds boring.

It would be very unusual to learn enough theory to be useful in song writing in a single summer, particularly through self study. Even a basic theory course in college runs two semesters.

BTW, please point to the posts that said you "cant write complex, interesting or intriguing music without theory" because I missed them.

[sobie18]

Shoot, I'll take those reading gigs....dots can sometimes scare people off.

[eddododo]

Originally Posted by sobie18

Shoot, I'll take those reading gigs....dots can sometimes scare people off.

+1

[bassybill]

Reading's an essential skill for me personally. It's also an essential skill for the people I play with as it's very often from charts. I spend a fair bit of time arranging and people who can't read aren't going to be a lot of use to me or anyone else for a lot of the gigs that we play. I do gig with one band where there's no reading and that's fun but the difficulty in communciating ideas to the other guys can be frustrating at times.

I do think people overestimate the difficulty of learning to read very often. I think if you follow the right method or get the right teacher, you can learn the basics of reading (and that in itself is still massively useful compared to no reading at all) pretty quickly even if you've been playing a while, and many would find it well worth the effort. It's really not that hard. Of course, becoming a fluent sight reader takes a lot of practice, but that shouldn't put anybody off picking up the basics, imo.

[hgiles]

Originally Posted by Axtman

Why are "musicians" so resistant to learning music? I know many people that are involved with music in bands that can't read standard notation an don't know a thing about theory.

In my experience they don't learn because

1) They don't see the value in it.
"I've gotten this far without it!"

2) They don't believe that it will make things easier down the road.
"I don't have time for that, I got a song to learn!"

3) They think there's something glamorous about being ignorant.
"Jimi Hendrix/Paul McCartney couldn't read!"

4) And they really believe they have some talent that transcends it all.
"I've got a good ear!"