Why learn music?

[Clef_de_fa]

Originally Posted by jive1

This is the best reason I have ever heard for learning to read music: If you can't read, you will be limited to music that you have heard before. Compared to a language, you will only be able to tell stories that you have heard before. Even if you could read the chord charts, you still don't have the full story, just the main plot.

I'm not a great sight reader. Actually, I'm better at sight reading on the keyboard than on bass. But, I can read. The nice thing is that I can look at a chart and get an idea of the melody, chord changes, tempo, and feel without hearing a single note (provided that it's a good chart).

As far as theory is concerned, the most practical reason to learn it is to make it easier to work with other musicians.

Wow jive1 that first paragraph really nails it for me. People never get that and think music can only be learn by hearing it ...

Latelly I read many of your post and you seem to really understand stuff that get over the head of 90% of the musician. Thank God there is some people like you here, sometime it is quite sad to read what is going on.

[Piggy8692]

I'm seeing different topics here...

I'm better than you because I don't/do know theory, and Theory does/doesn't hinder my creativity.

I'm a musical theory Neanderthal. I don't know what a relative minor is (Cousin that digs for minerals?) I could tell you where the fifth of the 4th fret on the E string is. Couldn't tell you the note though. I know that I could be much more advanced than I am at the moment if I had been trained. That's obvious.

Does that mean that it's impossible for me to write something that could potentially 'stump' a player that has been trained? Not in my opinion. I know that they could stump me.

If one knows theory, I would only imagine that their knowledge would be useful if they notice that they are sounding 'un-creative'. Then use their knowledge to correct the problem.

I know that there is a lot that I don't know, and I don't think I'm better than any other player. Until proven otherwise. Even then I'm sure they know something I don't.

Since reading all these posts, I've definitely bumped up formal lessons on the 'gear' list.

[NYCbassist]

People that can sight read seem more concerned with why people play by ear and don't read then the other way around. But if all you can do is play by ear then you are limiting your options. Even if you don't want to pursue those options at this time, you may in the future.
Like anything: you have good days and bad days. So on a bad day playing by ear it may be hard to come up with all the perfect notes. If you have a strong grasp on music theory, then you'll know exactly what notes to "drop in" to the mix. IMO

[lwknives]

Originally Posted by lfmn16

It would be very unusual to learn enough theory to be useful in song writing in a single summer, particularly through self study. Even a basic theory course in college runs two semesters.

I realize this, from talking to people who know a ton of theory, the stuff that I would actually use in writing music doesnt come until 4th or 5th semester theory. That was kind of my point. (Im pretty confident that I could test out of first semester theory and second semester would be an easy A)

BTW, please point to the posts that said you "cant write complex, interesting or intriguing music without theory" because I missed them.

ok,

Originally Posted by Phalex

If you learn to speak a foreign language without learning to read it, you can get by ok in a foreign country. You'll never write great poetry in that language, but you'll certainly be able to sing.

I can't read, but I can play. I may not be the best at what I do, but I've been doing it for 25 years.

I agree that it's good to be able to read, but it's a real bitch to learn once you already play.

Originally Posted by ksandvik

The more words you learn, the more you would write.
The more color blends you learn, the more you could paint.
The more music theory you know, more kinds of music you could make.

Originally Posted by Clef_de_fa

It always baffled me ...

You learn to read and write in english ... without it you couldn't work in this world and you would be very limited. I guess you learn a lot of stuff by reading about it etc...

it is the same thing

and if more people would know music theory and learn a little more about the history of music ... maybe we would see a rise in the quality of the music being played ... a lot of music is really dumb and simple ... almost like a child you learn to speak ... it is ok but at one point try to have a more meaningful discution ...

Originally Posted by hrodbert696

Of course, there are benefits to literacy, both in language and in music. I can tell a longer and more complex story by writing it up into a novel than if I tried to make it up orally or tell it in a version I had memorized (though you'd be amazed what oral storytellers can do in some cultures). I can access much greater depth of philosophical thought if I can read the books of long dead philosophers than if I depend on only the ideas people I have conversations with tell me. And likewise, in music, I will be able to do a lot more if I can interpret written music rather than relying on what I come up with out of my own head or what I can learn "orally."

Originally Posted by Clef_de_fa

Since classical musician when the direction of serialism and the jazz in the bebop and freejazz ... the quality of music really declined fast, it went dumber and dumber and more and more marketed like any fast food would be.

So yes I think that the more you know musical theory the more you will be inclined to write music that use more complex stuff. It open your mind !!!

It should be noted that I am currently picking up everything I can about theory. I love studying it! I dont need it in my blues/rock band, I dont need to for my finger-style acoustic playing but I am still spending the time to learn it.
I just dont think that it is necessary unless a gig requires it (lots of gigs will). Will you be more well rounded as a musician? absolutely! Is being well rounded good? Depends, a lot of musicians who are considered great aren't (weren't) well rounded.

[fraublugher]

The long road takes longer , go figure.

If you play every day , you will improve and learn as you go.
If you get a teacher you will learn exponentially faster , unless you're an atheist , they don't believe in higher values.
/rimshot

[mr mastodon]

it makes rehearsing tunes with the band about 7000x easier.

the only problem is when the guys use the chart as a crutch. it's there (in my opinion) to expedite the process of learning the parts and the form. not to replace said process. of course, this is not including pick-up gigs.

that said, i couldn't read until college.thankfully. i learned everything by listening, watching or looking at tabs. say what you will about tabs. they do suck. but what is good about them is that it requires listening to the song to get the rhythm and feel right.

i'd rather play with someone who learned by ear and struggles with reading than vice versa. any day of the week. it can be frustrating, but if they want to learn to read it isn't difficult. to learn to hear takes more years of dedication.

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by lwknives

BTW, please point to the posts that said you "cant write complex, interesting or intriguing music without theory" because I missed them.

ok,

Is being well rounded good? Depends, a lot of musicians who are considered great aren't (weren't) well rounded.

I read all your quotes and we see them differently. I didn't see anyone say that you CAN'T write complex, interesting or intriguing music without theory; I see them saying that theory is an advantage.

You seem to be arguing both sides of this. I'm not sure what you are actually trying to say. Maybe theory is a good thing but you don't really need it?

In general it's like a college degree; most of the people arguing that you don't need one (or it's a waste of money) are the people that don't have one.

[lwknives]

Originally Posted by lfmn16

I read all your quotes and we see them differently. I didn't see anyone say that you CAN'T write complex, interesting or intriguing music without theory; I see them saying that theory is an advantage.

Maybe CAN"T is to strong of a word, the imply it is unlikely you will/can.

You seem to be arguing both sides of this. I'm not sure what you are actually trying to say. Maybe theory is a good thing but you don't really need it?

Both sides have merit. There isnt one universal answer to the question, some people should learn theory others should not. Theory is a skill that makes you a more well rounded player. I would say being well rounded only has value if the individual wants to be well rounded. If all you care about is being an improvisational blues player then being a theory expert wont be particularly important to you.
You do have to sacrifice something to know theory well. Not creativity, but time and practice that could be put towards other musical skills. To some people its not worth the sacrifice to others it is.

In general it's like a college degree; most of the people arguing that you don't need one (or it's a waste of money) are the people that don't have one.

I am most of the way through a college degree in a field where I am almost guaranteed a job right out of school. I wouldnt have my current job if I wasnt in school. I dont think that what I have learned is worth the time and money I have put forth. The piece of paper I get at the end is the most valuable thing I have gained and I dont think its worth 5 years out of my life and the thousands of dollars I have put into it. Maybe a couple years down the road I will be glad I put forth the effort but right now Im doubting it.
Like music theory, a college degree is great if you want it, or if you want to make a lot of money for minimal work, but is not required to live a good life. I havnt noticed people with college degrees to be any happier than people without one, similarly I havent noticed musicians with a knowledge of theory to enjoy playing any more than those with none.

My point is, do what is required to accomplish what you want to accomplish. Other than that why waist the time?

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by lwknives

My point is, do what is required to accomplish what you want to accomplish. Other than that why waist the time?

Have to totally disagree with "If all you care about is being an improvisational blues player then being a theory expert wont be particularly important to you." The more you know about chords and how they work together the better you will be at improvisation.

On the other hand, if the goal is to put in the minimum effort to achieve minimum results and become an adequate bass player then I agree. You don't need theory to play all root eighth notes.

[lwknives]

Originally Posted by lfmn16

Have to totally disagree with "If all you care about is being an improvisational blues player then being a theory expert wont be particularly important to you." The more you know about chords and how they work together the better you will be at improvisation.

I dont use the theory I know when playing Blues, I play by ear. I use it sometimes when playing church PW music but not the blues I dont need it.

On the other hand, if the goal is to put in the minimum effort to achieve minimum results and become an adequate bass player then I agree. You don't need theory to play all root eighth notes. Before I knew theory, I didnt know what root eighth notes were.

Im not saying to put forth less effort, Im saying apply it to a different skillset than theory.
Also, not using theory doesnt mean you stay on the root. I played sus2, sus4, 7th, min7th, maj7th, 9th, add6th, susadd6th arpeggios long before I even knew what a scale was. I now know what all that stuff is but I dont have to think about the theory to make it work.
I can also use tritone, chromatic and whole tone scales but I still dont understand the theory behind them (yet).
No matter what kind of music you are doing theory will be an extra tool to have but for some it may not be worth it. A small machine shop could invest $15,000 dollars in a CNC mill, but if they are just doing one time jobs the CNC mill will sit around and take up space collecting dust. Unless the CNC mill makes the small company $15,000 dollars then it was a waist of resources. Does it make the machine shop a better machine shop? Yes because they can do more. Is it profitable to the machine shop? no, not unless the owner wants the machine for its own sake. That money could have been used to pay expenses that the shop has on a daily basis.
Its called cost/benefit analysis, for some the cost of learning theory isnt worth the benefit it provides. For me it is. For you it is. Evidently Opeth didnt think it was. Jimi Hendrix didnt think it was. The other guys in my band dont think it is and they have written close to 3 hours of good original material. Could they have done better if they had known theory? Maybe, but I wouldnt have wanted to miss out on what they did without it.

[phillybass101]

I like this thread because it is a great topic for discussion. We all have to remember that on this forum there are many types of bass players here. We have beginners, intermediates, advanced, working professionals, weekend warriors etc. I'll say this. I have had formal lessons and that my first teacher was a classical guitarist so there was no way I wasn't going to get training in reading, and in theory. I have been playing for 41 years and I'm about to study with a very famous Jazz Bassist starting in January. As you progress, you also move up in terms of opportunities and the kinds of musicians you meet. So no matter how good of a player you are eventually you will play yourself into a situation where you may have to know some stuff. It happened to Jaco and it could happen to you. To me the best cats are those who can read and also just jam. I know of a player who is technically trained and gigs as a bassist for plays etc. A reading required gig, We invited them to a jam session/practice for a company picnic show we were going to do and they could not play without music in front of them. We even gave them the chords to no avail. On the other extreme nothing will make you feel worse or more ashamed than showing up for a gig and they place a chart in front of you and you can't read it. So I'll close by saying that learning music will not hurt you but help you in the long run especially if you get good. At the same time get out there and know how to just jam and go with the flow. A certain balance should be a goal. For most of the gigs that I play now, do I have to read? No. I either know the song or have heard it before. Often I will be given a chord chart to follow if I dont know the song. So yeah, Often you won't be required to read for a bar/grill gig but as you progress and get a reptutation and more people want to play with you it's a basic requirement to have. Personally I don't care if a cat can read or not. As long as you can play is the thing for me. Still I would agree that cats who can read and know their theory hate more on players who can't than the other way around. I still think as a child when it comes to music. Man I'm just creatin and jammin. I'll tell ya what you study and analyze and document what I just played cause tomorrow I ain't going to play it the same way LOL!!!!

[phillybass101]

Damn. This however is not too shabby. LOL!!!! I'll trade places with Sir Paul any day and be glamorous and ignant and wealthy as hell. LOL!!!!! Shucks I'd hire somebody to write out my charts and he probably does.

3) They think there's something glamorous about being ignorant.
"Jimi Hendrix/Paul McCartney couldn't read!"

[wrench45us]

well then there is reading and then there is reading

I can read to a certain rudimentary level, but to be able to just look at a piece of music and hear the changes and melody line is well beyond what I can do now.

That level would seem to really open things up significantly.

As it is I work through a piece by reading and begin that process of associating what's written with how it sounds.

But the greatest piece of advice I ever heard was from Marc Sabatelli when he was in a band that went off in some new direction on Rhythm Changes and he got lost and was told, "Just listen, man."
I think at some level theory and reading and the ear training all come together and inform the listening. You may not have to ask what was that chord, you'll recognize the chord and the notation and the voicing. (I can dream, eh?) That level may not be necessary in all situations and some people may be able to get there in different ways, but there is a well-known path that will get you there.

[ProgRocker]

Originally Posted by Axtman

Why are "musicians" so resistant to learning music? I know many people that are involved with music in bands that can't read standard notation an don't know a thing about theory.

Tony Levin, who is a classically trained musician (as I'm sure most here know), has said that he has rarely been handed written music (standard notation) since leaving Classical Music.

Most of what I've been handed when I sit in is lyric sheets with chords written in above the lyrics. Some people use tab, but I find that's only helpful if you are already familiar with the music.

Most pop and rock musicians know little to no Theory. Many have no knowledge of scales or modes either. This is in large part I think because most kids going to teachers don't care about how music works, they just want to learn how to play their favorite songs.

They don't seem to care about how to create their own songs. But then no one in Iron Maiden (one of my favorite bands) knows how to read music. And Steve Harris admitted in an article years ago that he knew nothing of scales, modes, or Theory. Doesn't change the fact he's an amazing bass player though.

Unless you're looking to play Classical or Jazz, I don't think there's any real need to learn Theory. Does that mean you shouldn't? Of course not! Knowledge is weightless, and you can never have too much of it.

I just think most people are too focused on "instant gratification". They want to play "now" and don't care if they could be better. It is sad, but that seems to be the way things are going these days.

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by lwknives

No matter what kind of music you are doing theory will be an extra tool to have but for some it may not be worth it. A small machine shop could invest $15,000 dollars in a CNC mill, but if they are just doing one time jobs the CNC mill will sit around and take up space collecting dust. Unless the CNC mill makes the small company $15,000 dollars then it was a waist of resources. Does it make the machine shop a better machine shop? Yes because they can do more. Is it profitable to the machine shop? no, not unless the owner wants the machine for its own sake. That money could have been used to pay expenses that the shop has on a daily basis.
Its called cost/benefit analysis, for some the cost of learning theory isnt worth the benefit it provides. For me it is. For you it is. Evidently Opeth didnt think it was. Jimi Hendrix didnt think it was. The other guys in my band dont think it is and they have written close to 3 hours of good original material. Could they have done better if they had known theory? Maybe, but I wouldnt have wanted to miss out on what they did without it.

The $15,000 example doesn't apply to most musicians. Most of the musicians I know waste plenty of time doing things other than learning. When you want to do something, you find the time.

I don't say this to be a condescending jerk, although when I was young, that's how I would take this comment, but until you spend years studying music, you don't know how you will use that knowledge. I play in a blues band and a country band and I use my knowledge of theory and lessons learned from years of studying jazz in both. I can't think of a single band I've ever been in where I didn't use at least some of what I learned in school.

And please, don't use people like Jimi Hendrix as an example of how you don't need to study theory. Unless you are a gifted genius like him, you probably need all the help you can get - like the rest of us. If you are a gifted genius, I apologize

[lwknives]

Originally Posted by ProgRocker

I just think most people are too focused on "instant gratification". They want to play "now" and don't care if they could be better. It is sad, but that seems to be the way things are going these days.

This may be true in some cases, but I think that a lot of times it isnt that they dont care if they get better, its that they want to improve their chops or they want to write good songs or they want to get good at playing gigs.
If you spend an hour a day learning theory thats an hour you cant spend learning songs, working on your chops, writing music and doing other things that improve your playing. Learning theory gets in the way of that other stuff. You end up a more rounded musician maybe, but it comes at a cost.
A lot of musicians dont have time to play every day. If you only had two hours a week to spend on music would you rather spend it learning theory or playing bass.

[lwknives]

Originally Posted by lfmn16

The $15,000 example doesn't apply to most musicians. Most of the musicians I know waste plenty of time doing things other than learning. When you want to do something, you find the time.

It is a cost, you have to sacrifice other things to learn theory. In my example its money, for a musician its time, years of time.

I don't say this to be a condescending jerk, although when I was young, that's how I would take this comment, but until you spend years studying music, you don't know how you will use that knowledge. I play in a blues band and a country band and I use my knowledge of theory and lessons learned from years of studying jazz in both. I can't think of a single band I've ever been in where I didn't use at least some of what I learned in school.

I am sure that the more you know the easyer it will be to apply. But like you said it takes YEARS, if you have a full time job or a family or are a full time student there isnt a lot of time left to spend on music. So that makes it take even longer. Its worth spending some time on to me because I want to be a well rounded musician. but to someone who just wants to shred rock'n roll thats a big investment.

And please, don't use people like Jimi Hendrix as an example of how you don't need to study theory. Unless you are a gifted genius like him, you probably need all the help you can get - like the rest of us. If you are a gifted genius, I apologize

haha, Im no gifted genius. But I can jump into an originals blues/rock band that Ive never heard before and rock the heck out without giving a second thought to theory.
My point isnt so much that if jimi can do it so can anyone. Im just saying that IF you have a good ear you can play good music without knowing any theory.

[zfunkman]

The more you know . . . THE MORE YOU KNOW. Knowlege is a good thing. Knowing therory only makes you better even if you are already good. It just opens up that many doors. theory is actually pretty simple. Once you know the basics it all falls into place.

[lwknives]

Also, Jimi isnt the only one I mentioned. I also mentioned the guys in my band and myself. Theres also the guitarist at my church, he can absolutely shred any style. He doesnt know any theory. There are a tone of extremely good musicians today who can play whatever they want with no theory.

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by lwknives

Im just saying that IF you have a good ear you can play good music without knowing any theory.

We can agree on this!

I've played with 2 guitar players over the last 40 years that were both killer in their own style, but couldn't find an 'A' on the fretboard with a gun to their head. I'd ask them what key something was in and they'd get a pained looked on their faces, play a few notes and say, "this key."