Why learn music?

[Febs]

Originally Posted by lwknives

Also, Jimi isnt the only one I mentioned. I also mentioned the guys in my band and myself. Theres also they guitarist at church, he can absolutely shred any style. He doesnt know any theory. There are a tone of extremely good musicians today who can play whatever they want with no theory.

I've seen guys like that crash and burn hard when put into a reading situation.

[lwknives]

Originally Posted by zfunkman

The more you know . . . THE MORE YOU KNOW. Knowlege is a good thing. Knowing therory only makes you better even if you are already good. It just opens up that many doors. theory is actually pretty simple. Once you know the basics it all falls into place.

True. There are cases where there are more important things than knowledge.

[lwknives]

Originally Posted by Febs

I've seen guys like that crash and burn hard when put into a reading situation.

Very true I cant read worth a darn. But not everybody wants to or needs to read. If I had to read to get a gig I prolly wouldnt want the gig anyway.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by lwknives

Very true I cant read worth a darn. But not everybody wants to or needs to read. If I had to read to get a gig I prolly wouldnt want the gig anyway.

Absolutely true. Not everybody wants or needs to read. But then it's really not accurate to describe those people as being able to play anything.

[lwknives]

Originally Posted by Febs

Absolutely true. Not everybody wants or needs to read. But then it's really not accurate to describe those people as being able to play anything.

I said they could play whatever they want. I didnt say they could play anything.

[jive1]

Originally Posted by lwknives

If you spend an hour a day learning theory thats an hour you cant spend learning songs, working on your chops, writing music and doing other things that improve your playing. Learning theory gets in the way of that other stuff. You end up a more rounded musician maybe, but it comes at a cost.

I could spend time learning one song, or I can learn theory which will let me learn dozens of songs faster. I could spend time writing a song that sounds just like the last song I wrote, or learning theory which may open possibilities I didn't know existed.

Back when I used to teach, I always told the student and/or their parents that I don't solely teach the instrument, nor do I teach songs specifically. I told them I first and foremost taught music, which they could use to apply in any musical situation. I got to be pretty popular with the homeschool folks because of it. I've had plenty of students leave for instructors who just taught them tunes. But, I've also had plenty of students stick around, including one who even gave up the guitar and still wanted to learn music theory so he can play the piano. I also had some come back because they were stuck.

Because I taught in a small mountain town, I got to keep up with some of my students. The ones who made it through the beginning months of exercises and music theory to the point where it clicked, their progress afterwards was impressive. The students didn't need me to teach them songs because they could figure it out themselves. They didn't need me to figure out chords because they could do it themselves. They didn't need me to show them scale patterns, because they came up with them themselves. On the other hand, the kids who quit to learn the latest Metallica riff sounded more impressive in the beginning, but after months, most of my students were head and tails above them in their knowledge and ability. Those kids could only play the songs they learned, while my kids were playing dozens of songs with confidence. I was teaching my students with the same 1/2 hour a week as the other teachers were, and the results were night and day.

[lwknives]

Originally Posted by jive1

I could spend time learning one song, or I can learn theory which will let me learn dozens of songs faster. I could spend time writing a song that sounds just like the last song I wrote, or learning theory which may open possibilities I didn't know existed.

Back when I used to teach, I always told the student and/or their parents that I don't solely teach the instrument, nor do I teach songs specifically. I told them I first and foremost taught music, which they could use to apply in any musical situation. I got to be pretty popular with the homeschool folks because of it. I've had plenty of students leave for instructors who just taught them tunes. But, I've also had plenty of students stick around, including one who even gave up the guitar and still wanted to learn music theory so he can play the piano. I also had some come back because they were stuck.

Because I taught in a small mountain town, I got to keep up with some of my students. The ones who made it through the beginning months of exercises and music theory to the point where it clicked, their progress afterwards was impressive. The students didn't need me to teach them songs because they could figure it out themselves. They didn't need me to figure out chords because they could do it themselves. They didn't need me to show them scale patterns, because they came up with them themselves. On the other hand, the kids who quit to learn the latest Metallica riff sounded more impressive in the beginning, but after months, most of my students were head and tails above them in their knowledge and ability. Those kids could only play the songs they learned, while my kids were playing dozens of songs with confidence. I was teaching my students with the same 1/2 hour a week as the other teachers were, and the results were night and day.

I was homeshooled, it was the bomb!

I think that if you are going to take lessons you are better off learning theory from the start. I would suggest that anybody who wants to start playing an instrument learn theory. I think its the fastest way to get good at playing.
Some people (like me) didnt know any better and learned songs by tab or by ear for the first few years of playing. I Sent my first year taking lessons and learning songs using tab. I quit lessons after that and played strictly by ear for about 3 years writing metal riffs mostly. I didnt even really think about learning theory. I was just playing by myself in my bedroom. I didnt even know what notes there were in C major, I was busy with other stuff.
I developed a pretty good ear over that time to the point that the theory behind what I was doing was pretty complex.
For someone who has already developed their ear, there is less incentive to learn theory because they already know how to do everything that they will learn in the first and maybe second year of studying.

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by lwknives

I Sent my first year taking lessons and learning songs using tab ... I was just playing by myself in my bedroom. I didnt even know what notes there were in C major

You took lessons for a year and didn't know the notes of a C major scale? You must have had the worst teacher in the world.

Originally Posted by lwknives

For someone who has already developed their ear, there is less incentive to learn theory because they already know how to do everything that they will learn in the first and maybe second year of studying.

I'm not sure what your definition of music theory is, but if you think that having a good ear is the equivalent of knowing everything you would learn in one or two years of studying theory, it is wrong. Theory is about more than notes. It also includes chords and structure.

After my first year in music school I could look at a chart, identify each chord, know all the notes in each chord, know what notes would work with the chord, see the chord before and after it and have a rudimentary understanding of how to get from one chord to another. I don't think many people could do all that by ear in one year.

I'm not trying to get anyone to learn anything they don't want to learn, but I think we need to be honest in this discussion. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to know theory, there is nothing wrong with self-study, but few people have the discipline to learn as quickly and efficiently through self-study as they would through formal education.

[lwknives]

Originally Posted by lfmn16

You took lessons for a year and didn't know the notes of a C major scale? You must have had the worst teacher in the world.

No, he just didnt teach that. He taught Chet-atkins, fiddle tunes and bluegrass. It wasnt important for the way he was teaching. I wish that I had learned theory when I was first starting but I didnt know any better.

I'm not sure what your definition of music theory is, but if you think that having a good ear is the equivalent of knowing everything you would learn in one or two years of studying theory, it is wrong. Theory is about more than notes. It also includes chords and structure.

Im not saying they are the same, Im saying that you dont have to know the structure to play it. You can play a 7th chord without knowing what a 7th chord is. You can listen and know that the song is calling for a 7th with out knowing what a 7th is. You wont know what you are doing but you will be playing the same thing. It will take them years to get to the point they understand the structure behind what they do by ear.

After my first year in music school I could look at a chart, identify each chord, know all the notes in each chord, know what notes would work with the chord, see the chord before and after it and have a rudimentary understanding of how to get from one chord to another. I don't think many people could do all that by ear in one year.

I agree. I am not saying that learning theory isnt a better/faster way to learn music. But for someone who already has a good ear and knows how to improvise and can already write good tunes, music theory may not be worth the years of study

I'm not trying to get anyone to learn anything they don't want to learn, but I think we need to be honest in this discussion. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to know theory, there is nothing wrong with self-study, but few people have the discipline to learn as quickly and efficiently through self-study as they would through formal education.

Not everybody has the option to get formal training. I would love to take lessons, for the past three years I havnt had any way to pay for them or time to go to them if I could pay for them. Some people have families and full time jobs and cant get a formal music education. Not everybody has time or money for lessons.
I can skim through a Theory I book and I pretty much have that stuff down. Theory II, I have some knowledge, there is stuff in there I dont know. Obviously if I knew more theory I could apply it more.
Im not saying theory is pointless, Im saying that for some people the benefit they get isnt worth the time they put in to get it.

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by lwknives

Not everybody has the option to get formal training. I would love to take lessons, for the past three years I havnt had any way to pay for them or time to go to them if I could pay for them. Some people have families and full time jobs and cant get a formal music education. Not everybody has time or money for lessons.

I appreciate that we've been able to keep this discussion civil even though we disagree on many points. I'll just make one last comment since I've really made my points.

EVERYONE has the option to get formal training. It just isn't easy and may not be at your preferred college/university/conservatory. You may have to make sacrifices, work a second job, join the military to get your education paid for, move, quit your job, work part time, get a roommate, or just figure out a way to make it work. In most cases, you are responsible for your own situation. You may need to sacrifice time with the kids, the wife, your buddies; you may need to give up Talkbass, TV, youtube or a hundred other distractions.

When people want something bad enough they stop making excuses and figure out how to get it. I went back to school at 25 to finish my music degree. It was hard work and I made a ton of sacrifices, but it was worth it. I got my degree in computer science at 40; same thing, a lot of sacrifice and hard work (I was going to school part time while working full time) but I figured out how to get it done.

If you don't have formal training it's because you don't want it bad enough. AND there is nothing wrong with not wanting it.

[lwknives]

Originally Posted by lfmn16

I appreciate that we've been able to keep this discussion civil even though we disagree on many points. I'll just make one last comment since I've really made my points.

I will miss the discussion.

EVERYONE has the option to get formal training. It just isn't easy and may not be at your preferred college/university/conservatory. You may have to make sacrifices, work a second job, join the military to get your education paid for, move, quit your job, work part time, get a roommate, or just figure out a way to make it work. In most cases, you are responsible for your own situation. You may need to sacrifice time with the kids, the wife, your buddies; you may need to give up Talkbass, TV, youtube or a hundred other distractions.

I stand corrected. I should have said it isnt worth it for some people to get formal training. Between work and school I get 3-5 hours of sleep a night. When school is out I worked two jobs 6am to 8pm. Things are easing up a lot right now but I would have to go into debt to pay for lessons.

When people want something bad enough they stop making excuses and figure out how to get it. I went back to school at 25 to finish my music degree. It was hard work and I made a ton of sacrifices, but it was worth it. I got my degree in computer science at 40; same thing, a lot of sacrifice and hard work (I was going to school part time while working full time) but I figured out how to get it done.

Its not always that they are making excuses, they do a cost benefit analysis and decide that the improvement they will see from knowing theory isnt worth the time they would put into it.

If you don't have formal training it's because you don't want it bad enough. AND there is nothing wrong with not wanting it.
True, thats also the reason I dont own a house with an expensive sports car in the garage.

I think it would be safe to say that a knowledge of music theory will always make you a better musician all else being equal.
I think it would also be safe to say that not every musician will find the improvement gained from theory to be useful enough to be worth the time put into it.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by jive1

I could spend time learning one song, or I can learn theory which will let me learn dozens of songs faster. I could spend time writing a song that sounds just like the last song I wrote, or learning theory which may open possibilities I didn't know existed.

Back when I used to teach, I always told the student and/or their parents that I don't solely teach the instrument, nor do I teach songs specifically. I told them I first and foremost taught music, which they could use to apply in any musical situation. I got to be pretty popular with the homeschool folks because of it. I've had plenty of students leave for instructors who just taught them tunes. But, I've also had plenty of students stick around, including one who even gave up the guitar and still wanted to learn music theory so he can play the piano. I also had some come back because they were stuck.

Because I taught in a small mountain town, I got to keep up with some of my students. The ones who made it through the beginning months of exercises and music theory to the point where it clicked, their progress afterwards was impressive. The students didn't need me to teach them songs because they could figure it out themselves. They didn't need me to figure out chords because they could do it themselves. They didn't need me to show them scale patterns, because they came up with them themselves. On the other hand, the kids who quit to learn the latest Metallica riff sounded more impressive in the beginning, but after months, most of my students were head and tails above them in their knowledge and ability. Those kids could only play the songs they learned, while my kids were playing dozens of songs with confidence. I was teaching my students with the same 1/2 hour a week as the other teachers were, and the results were night and day.

+100

Since learning theory, my playing has improved exponentially. I already was a solid bassist and could play some really impressive things on the instrument, but I couldn't solo, jam, or create anything good to save my life. Learning theory changed that (literally) within a matter of months.

To be 100% honest, I really believe a half hour spent on theory is worth more than a whole hour spent wood shedding new songs or other things that you already know. And let me tell you, learning theory has made learning songs (especially those I'm unfamiliar with) a million times easier, and it has definitely opened up my playing.

[lwknives]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

+100

Since learning theory, my playing has improved exponentially. I already was a solid bassist and could play some really impressive things on the instrument, but I couldn't solo, jam, or create anything good to save my life. Learning theory changed that (literally) within a matter of months.

To be 100% honest, I really believe a half hour spent on theory is worth more than a whole hour spent wood shedding new songs or other things that you already know. And let me tell you, learning theory has made learning songs (especially those I'm unfamiliar with) a million times easier, and it has definitely opened up my playing.

In your case learning theory was obviously worth the work. Some people can already jam, solo and write good songs before learning theory though.

[LiamPodmore]

I'm learning to read and slowly working on my theory, but there's evidence that you don't need it. Tim Minchin wrote an award winning musical (Matilda) without being able to read music at all.

Liam

[Clef_de_fa]

Originally Posted by lwknives

In your case learning theory was obviously worth the work. Some people can already jam, solo and write good songs before learning theory though.

Maybe that after learning some basic in theory you would have that last thing to write a hit that will make you a star ...

Maybe you think you write good song but in reality it misses something, maybe it could help you write more various songs instead of always the same rock formula ...

who knows how better you could be after only learning the basic ...

[benjamin_danger]

For some of you, I believe that in the time it took for you to read over this thread, you could get a basic understanding of how to read music. I'm not saying that you'd be proficient right off the bat, but it'd be a step in the right direction.

[lwknives]

Originally Posted by Clef_de_fa

Maybe that after learning some basic in theory you would have that last thing to write a hit that will make you a star ...

With some of the hits and stars out there im not sure thats a good thing

Maybe you think you write good song but in reality it misses something, maybe it could help you write more various songs instead of always the same rock formula ...

who knows how better you could be after only learning the basic ...

I know the basics (chord structure, scales, modes and progressions).
My music is most certainly not rock formula. I like writing 20 minute epic metal/prog rock tunes with extended finger-style acoustic sections and what not. I like jumping between smooth flowing and melodic and to chromatic or discordant soft and quiet to dense and supper heavy. I havent found the theory that really helps with writing this style of music yet.

[4dog]

If i could start again i honestly would go the theory and reading route i see the value,, and if i were someplace where there were a buttload of killer players i might still would,,, im in a town of 1700 people next biggest 45,, maybe 50,000 not many recording stdios to become a session guy its ok with me,, i can play,, and not too shabby if i do say so

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by lwknives

I know the basics (chord structure, scales, modes and progressions).
My music is most certainly not rock formula. I like writing 20 minute epic metal/prog rock tunes with extended finger-style acoustic sections and what not. I like jumping between smooth flowing and melodic and to chromatic or discordant soft and quiet to dense and supper heavy. I havent found the theory that really helps with writing this style of music yet.

Could you post a link to one of these 20 minute epics? It might help this debate.

Thanks

[Clef_de_fa]

Originally Posted by lwknives

I know the basics (chord structure, scales, modes and progressions).
My music is most certainly not rock formula. I like writing 20 minute epic metal/prog rock tunes with extended finger-style acoustic sections and what not. I like jumping between smooth flowing and melodic and to chromatic or discordant soft and quiet to dense and supper heavy. I havent found the theory that really helps with writing this style of music yet.

There aren't a part in a theory book that will adress that situation in particular. At one point your imagination is the thing but with some theory and knowing different writting style from the old days. It helps hear those things also if you know what you're looking for, instead of fumbling around you go directly to it.