Why learn music?

[lwknives]

Originally Posted by lfmn16

Could you post a link to one of these 20 minute epics? It might help this debate.

Thanks

I said I wrote them, not recorded them. They are a big mess of ideas that would take a ton of time to lay down, I decided it was a better use of my time to learn theory. Metal is a pain to record and nobody I know likes it.
I have a ten minute one I did about two years ago. ill try and post it.

[Itzayana]

Originally Posted by eddododo

Its alot like being illiterate.. Its not necessary to read to communicate, but I would say that the gorgeous subtleties of hemingways language would be lost on the illiterate..

Theres always exceptions of course, but reading music and understanding the science is an invaluable tool... there are a lot of guys who are super talented and can play really well by ear, but I, for example, play well by ear, but also read like a monster and play non-intuitive/ atomal music by ear, thanks to understanding the.language and science

It is also really hard to learn if you are illiterate.
How far could you get in school if you didn't know how to read?
The only thing that I can think of that you can be really great at without the ability to read is digging post holes.
PhD= post hole digger.

[Johnpjm]

It takes a lot of time and effort, and if said musicians aren't committed, it falls through the cracks.

There are many wonderful and famous musicians though that couldn't read music worth a rat's ass, but still sold millions of records.

[LarryCrabtree]

Being trained in classical piano since age 6 some may think I am not qualified to speak on this subject. However when I was 16 I picked up a bass for the first time. I was lost to the bass world forever after that. Since most of the rock and roll bands I was in were garage bands we picked everything off the radio or records. I can read and I sight read very good. I have fortunate that when I play bass somehow that ability can be turned off. Oh yes I can read charts and when I first see a song it might be on a chart, but when I play I always put my own little twists in. I very seldom play the straight chart. I know that reading helps me when I get in with some people I don't know and need to pick up on their music quickly, but, they have been very graceful not to be too hard on me when I make the music my own is some ways.
Being able to read a music score and play the parts is not a bad thing but neither is being able to hear a tune and play it right off without ever seeing a note. They are different gifts "Simple Gifts" that can complement and enhance each other. Playing Jazz as I do now on keyboards and playing rock on bass I have learned to appreciate both types of gifts in others and love what each does for the person who has them.

[lwknives]

Originally Posted by Itzayana

It is also really hard to learn if you are illiterate.
How far could you get in school if you didn't know how to read?
The only thing that I can think of that you can be really great at without the ability to read is digging post holes.
PhD= post hole digger.

You can become a professional welder, you can make art, you can operate heavy machinery, you can be a farmer. A lot of the native Americans couldnt read and they were fine before the americans came and took over there land.
The ability to read is required In the modern world but that doesnt mean it is required to build a good life.
The analogy breaks down because there are thousands of very successful musicians who cant read whereas there arent many people who cant read who are successful.

[lwknives]

here is the link to my youtube channel. My long song is to long to upload so ill have to figure something else for that one. no theory was used in writing this stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/user/lwknives

[Clef_de_fa]

Originally Posted by lwknives

You can become a professional welder, you can make art, you can operate heavy machinery, you can be a farmer. A lot of the native Americans couldnt read and they were fine before the americans came and took over there land.
The ability to read is required In the modern world but that doesnt mean it is required to build a good life.
The analogy breaks down because there are thousands of very successful musicians who cant read whereas there arent many people who cant read who are successful.

You will still be a dumb person that knows nothing outside of being a farmer and saddly can't understand anything else because of it so you will fear a God or any other things that you can't explain so someone with knowledge can screw you ...

I have a grandfather who is illetrate. He worked a dumb job all his live, can't read, don't even know how to count ... so someone could say any thing he can't veriified by himself ... so he depends on everyone around him for everything. Also, if he didn't hear it first he can't know it. He can't read about it and know more thing ... no. And since a casual conversation is really basic ... you don't know better, you aren't mentally chalenged ...

So I think it is the same way since the R&R came out ... you could be as dumb as a rock ( no pun intended ) and still make millions ... so I think this music and everything derived from it like pop music, rap, many metal music are encouraging people to be dumb. So ... after 60 years of dumb... we get to the point that one chord and two notes bass line on a beat machine is enough to satisfied someone. I just think it is a sign that everything is dumbed down and it is a disservice for the future.

[4dog]

Originally Posted by Clef_de_fa

You will still be a dumb person that knows nothing outside of being a farmer and saddly can't understand anything else because of it so you will fear a God or any other things that you can't explain so someone with knowledge can screw you ...

I have a grandfather who is illetrate. He worked a dumb job all his live, can't read, don't even know how to count ... so someone could say any thing he can't veriified by himself ... so he depends on everyone around him for everything. Also, if he didn't hear it first he can't know it. He can't read about it and know more thing ... no. And since a casual conversation is really basic ... you don't know better, you aren't mentally chalenged ...

So I think it is the same way since the R&R came out ... you could be as dumb as a rock ( no pun intended ) and still make millions ... so I think this music and everything derived from it like pop music, rap, many metal music are encouraging people to be dumb. So ... after 60 years of dumb... we get to the point that one chord and two notes bass line on a beat machine is enough to satisfied someone. I just think it is a sign that everything is dumbed down and it is a disservice for the future.

WOW,,,just wow

[LarryCrabtree]

Growing up in California as I did during the 60's then moving to Tennessee to work as an engineer I have been blessed to see both sides of music. I have seen the complex world of classical and love going to the symphony. I love listening to the complex tonal timber, and rhythms of the music. But I have grown to have a deeper understanding of and appreciation for the music of the mountains. The old Scotch-Irish tunes the simple three chord turn around song. The story telling of the songs. As I said before I have learned to love both "simple gifts" of being able to read and being able to play by ear. We need to open up our heart and give all music a chance to touch us in our souls and move us to play our own songs.

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by lwknives

People keep making the implication that you cant write complex, interesting or intriguing music without theory, I would say this is very false. I taught myself as much theory as I could last summer, I learned a lot and Im glad that I spent the time learning what I did, but the material that I have written is above my level of theory knowledge. I have searched the web trying to find the theory behind what I have written but cant find anything that is readily available or understandable to me. Im sure its out there but it isnt something covered in first year theory classes. I think that with another year of studying I could learn enough to figure out what Im doing but I would rather spend that time writing tunes or working on my chops.
I haven't seen anyone on here say that theory takes away from your creativity or feeling (obviously it doesn't). I do know that I dont use the theory I know to write music. When I do my music sounds boring.

Originally Posted by lwknives

here is the link to my youtube channel. My long song is to long to upload so ill have to figure something else for that one. no theory was used in writing this stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/user/lwknives

Interesting or intriguing is in the ear of the listener so I'll leave that judgment to others, but there is nothing complex about any of the songs I listened to. The instrumental metal jam basically goes back and forth between two chords (although the two chords change occasionally) and the acoustic jam in Am circles the same tonal center.

If you want to hear good examples of 10-20 minute epic pieces, listen to old Yes, Emerson, Lake and Palmer, Camel, Spock's Beard, Ozrick Tentacles, Miles Davis, etc. I'm sure other's can make suggestions also.

[lwknives]

Originally Posted by lfmn16

Interesting or intriguing is in the ear of the listener so I'll leave that judgment to others, but there is nothing complex about any of the songs I listened to. The instrumental metal jam basically goes back and forth between two chords (although the two chords change occasionally) and the acoustic jam in Am circles the same tonal center.

The metal song was the first song I wrote.
Give me a little bit of a break on that one. The acoustic jam has wiered chords in it that I wouldn't have thought to do from my theory knowledge. It doesn't change keys or do anything out of the ordinary but it sounds nice.

If you want to hear good examples of 10-20 minute epic pieces, listen to old Yes, Emerson, Lake and Palmer, Camel, Spock's Beard, Ozrick Tentacles, Miles Davis, etc. I'm sure other's can make suggestions also.

I'm familiar with that stuff. I'm convinced that those songs could have been writen with no theory knowledge.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by lwknives

The acoustic jam has wiered chords in it that I wouldn't have thought to do from my theory knowledge.

That is a limitation of your knowledge, rather than a limitation of the theory.

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by lwknives

LFMN - If you want to hear good examples of 10-20 minute epic pieces, listen to old Yes, Emerson, Lake and Palmer, Camel, Spock's Beard, Ozrick Tentacles, Miles Davis, etc.

I'm familiar with that stuff. I'm convinced that those songs could have been writen with no theory knowledge.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion.

Originally Posted by lwknives

The metal song was the first song I wrote.
Give me a little bit of a break on that one. The acoustic jam has wiered chords in it that I wouldn't have thought to do from my theory knowledge. It doesn't change keys or do anything out of the ordinary but it sounds nice.

You were the one that chose which songs to provide a link to. You've been talking about the complex, interesting and intriguing material that you write with limited knowledge of musical theory. You say you enjoy writing 20 minute epic pieces. I asked you to post an example and your examples and I'm not hearing anything epic, 20 minutes long (or close to that) or complex.

Sorry, but if you make a claim on a public form that is easy to prove or disprove by providing examples, you should be prepared to back it up.

[JohnMCA72]

Originally Posted by lwknives

here is the link to my youtube channel. My long song is to long to upload so ill have to figure something else for that one. no theory was used in writing this stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/user/lwknives

Without even listening, I'll submit to you that a heck of a lot of theory was used. You (& plenty of others) probably know a lot more than you realize. You may not have the formal training that some have, or know the precise terms, etc. but being around something enough allows you to learn a lot anyway. Unless it sounds like some meaningless, random noise, some music theory was used. Even an illiterate hillbilly (no offense meant to illiterate hillbillies) can shoot a rifle accurately, accounting for wind, rate of bullet drop, leading a moving target, etc. without having a PhD in Physics.

[lwknives]

Originally Posted by lfmn16

Well, you are entitled to your opinion.

You were the one that chose which songs to provide a link to. You've been talking about the complex, interesting and intriguing material that you write with limited knowledge of musical theory. You say you enjoy writing 20 minute epic pieces. I asked you to post an example and your examples and I'm not hearing anything epic, 20 minutes long (or close to that) or complex.

Sorry, but if you make a claim on a public form that is easy to prove or disprove by providing examples, you should be prepared to back it up.
Im not sure how much recording you have done but putting together 20 min of heavy metal and making it sound good is no easy task, especially for a guy with two mics and garage band.

Like I said in my earlier post, I spent my time learning theory instead of finalizing and recording those pieces, I have a 10:51 track that I could post but Reverbnation messes it up and its to long to put in a video.
I gave a link to all of the material that I have recorded and available, you can believe that im making up lies for the sake of wining an argument if you want but I see no point in that. It is a fact that there are a lot of musicians who write creative, good music with no knowledge of theory, maybe its not the norm in your experience but Ive seen it a lot.

[lwknives]

Originally Posted by Febs

That is a limitation of your knowledge, rather than a limitation of the theory.

Thats kind of my point. I spent a summer learning theory the best I could, but I sit down to write music and I dont use it because I dont know it well enough. It would take me two years (at the rate Im going) for my theory to catch up with my ear.
Im NOT saying that theory is limited or limiting, Im saying that some peoples ears and fingers already know it without having to study theory.

My knowledge is limited but I can still write music.

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by lwknives

I like writing 20 minute epic metal/prog rock tunes with extended finger-style acoustic sections and what not.

Originally Posted by lwknives

They are a big mess of ideas that would take a ton of time to lay down,

Originally Posted by lwknives

I spent my time learning theory instead of finalizing and recording those pieces,

Originally Posted by lwknives

you can believe that im making up lies for the sake of wining an argument if you want but I see no point in that.

I'm not trying to win an argument, just trying to get to the truth. You've held yourself up as an example of someone who can write complex music with a limited knowledge of theory and I'm just not seeing it. Having a bunch of ideas in your head is not the same as writing a 20 minute piece of music.

I'm not saying it can't be done. The Beatles wrote some pretty complex interesting music and I don't think any of them could read music at the time.

[lwknives]

Originally Posted by lfmn16

I'm not trying to win an argument, just trying to get to the truth. You've held yourself up as an example of someone who can write complex music with a limited knowledge of theory and I'm just not seeing it. Having a bunch of ideas in your head My fingers too is not the same as writing a 20 minute piece of music.

I'm not saying it can't be done. The Beatles wrote some pretty complex interesting music and I don't think any of them could read music at the time.

I never claimed to have recorded a bunch of 20 min tunes, I said I enjoyed writing them. I have one 20 min tune that is mostly done, still no drums still some harmonies need to be written. A tone of guitar and bass parts that need to be layered.
My point in that comment was not that I had a bunch of 20 minute epics that I was ready to show the world, but that it was what I enjoyed writing as apposed to "rock formula". Theory wont help me get away from "rock formula" because Im not currently writing "rock formula" songs.

It isnt my lack of theory that is holding me back from writing complex music. Whether you chose to acknowledge my personal ability doesnt matter though. The fact is, there are people who can write complex epic music with no theory knowledge.

[Steve Dallman]

I will be 60 next month. In high school, I could read music. My first semester in college, I auditioned into the senior choir, not because my voice was that good, but because I could sight read bass clef vocally. I've played bass since I was 16. I rarely if ever needed my sight reading "skills" on bass...

...until a few weeks ago, where I got a call out of the blue to play in the pit at a performance of "The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas" at the last minute. Something went terribly wrong with their musical director, and musicians were found to play for a run starting on a Thursday, with only a few short days to prepare.

Sunday night before the first performance, I saw and heard the music for the first time. 17 songs, 4 reprises, much improv, 198 page piano score...

Although rusty, my reading skills did come back. If I couldn't read, I would have been rather useless. The piano player was a great reader, and had a strong left hand. If I didn't follow the score, what I played too often clashed with the piano. The bass had to follow the piano, or compliment the piano.

Point being, after 45 years of not needing to know how to read music, the ONE instance where I needed to finally appeared.

You just never know.

[1958Bassman]

Originally Posted by LarryCrabtree

Being trained in classical piano since age 6 some may think I am not qualified to speak on this subject. However when I was 16 I picked up a bass for the first time. I was lost to the bass world forever after that. Since most of the rock and roll bands I was in were garage bands we picked everything off the radio or records. I can read and I sight read very good. I have fortunate that when I play bass somehow that ability can be turned off. Oh yes I can read charts and when I first see a song it might be on a chart, but when I play I always put my own little twists in. I very seldom play the straight chart. I know that reading helps me when I get in with some people I don't know and need to pick up on their music quickly, but, they have been very graceful not to be too hard on me when I make the music my own is some ways.
Being able to read a music score and play the parts is not a bad thing but neither is being able to hear a tune and play it right off without ever seeing a note. They are different gifts "Simple Gifts" that can complement and enhance each other. Playing Jazz as I do now on keyboards and playing rock on bass I have learned to appreciate both types of gifts in others and love what each does for the person who has them.

The fact that you know music is the reason you can play with any musical quality- physical ability to play aside. You know what the intervals are, you know harmony, how they work together and rhythm. Someone who learns soley by ear can learn these, too- your example of those who sold millions of records refers to this. However, someone who learns only by ear won't learn some of the nuances, won't really know why the music they play works, won't learn without "bad habits". They won't be able to communicate with others, musically, without having to play everything, rather than just notating it, mailing/showing it to them and having them sight-read it.

A musician's "ear" is absolutely essential to being able to make music that anyone will want to hear. Someone who doesn't have a good musical ear can't play as musically interesting as someone whose ear is more developed. While someone can add little fills to what they learn note-for-note by reading, someone who can't read and has an amazing ear will play more interesting musical ideas because they're playing what they think will sound good, not what's "correct" from a musical theory standpoint. IMO.