Why learn music?

[lwknives]

Originally Posted by kreider204

As always, I can't help but notice that it's only the people who don't know theory who argue that it's not important ...

I have spent manny hours learning theory. Im not good at it and I am very busy so it is taking me a while but I am working on it.
I dont plan to ever stop working on it. But I dont think its necessary for every musician to learn.

[lwknives]

Originally Posted by Febs

Let me set up a hypothetical situation.

Let's say you want to bake a cake. A new type of cake, and one that no one has ever tasted before.

Which path do you think will most likely bring you success at your cake-baking endeavors?

A. Learning the recipes for existing cakes, and then using that knowledge to create your own, unique recipe?

or

B. Randomly putting different ingredients together until you independently happen to come across flour, sugar, eggs, etc.? IF you ever happen to come across those ingredients.

Not randomly, a musician can have a feel and know what notes are needed. In your analogy, it would be like a baker who could feel what needed to be put in the cake. It wouldnt be "random" he would know what he wanted and how to make it happen.

Like all analogies, this one isn't perfect, but it illustrates the point that knowledge can help you achieve your goals faster and more effectively. Can you succeed in songwriting without any knowledge of music theory, essentially through random experimentation and learning as you go? Sure. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while. But it's not necessarily the best way to achieve your goals.

You can use a "tab" recipe vs a "sheet music" recipe.
The assumption in my analogy was that the band was capable of writing good music, which is true in many band situations.

Again, Im not saying that music theory isnt a good way to LEARN to play well or write, Im saying some people already know how to play and write. For them music theory is less of a benefit.

[lwknives]

Originally Posted by fmoore200

I hear you, but why can't those band members learn theory while writing, rehearsing, gigging, etc? If they were any good to begin with it is likely (not absolutely) that the writing will get even deeper as their collective tool set and musical understanding increases.

Full time jobs, family, school ect. time is not unlimited and music theory takes a lot of practice and repetition to get down. They could start learning theory but with other stuff going on it would take years for their theory knowledge to catch up with their music.

I should point out that I DO NOT condone, in any case, the person who actively avoids learning theory. If you have are given some theory information dont ignore it, store it away. Even if you dont have time to master it you shouldnt avoid it.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by lwknives

You can use a "tab" recipe vs a "sheet music" recipe.
The assumption in my analogy was that the band was capable of writing good music, which is true in many band situations.

Again, Im not saying that music theory isnt a good way to LEARN to play well or write, Im saying some people already know how to play and write. For them music theory is less of a benefit.

You need to learn how to quote properly. It is impossible to reply to your posts when you put the reply inside someone else's quote.

[lwknives]

Originally Posted by Febs

You need to learn how to quote properly. It is impossible to reply to your posts when you put the reply inside someone else's quote.

It makes it more clear the exact part of the quote I'm addressing. I personally think its a better way to quote people. I wish people would quote me that way.

It seems that lots of people are personally attacking me and ignoring my actual argument.

[Clef_de_fa]

I don't think composing music like Chick Corea, John Patitucci, Belà Fleck is possible without any theory knowledge . There is a very big world that can only be accessible with theory knowledge, I don't think you ears alone can you get there.

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by kreider204

As always, I can't help but notice that it's only the people who don't know theory who argue that it's not important ...

And most of the people who say a degree is overrated don't have a degree, and people who don't understand color theory argue that it isn't a big deal, and people who can't play their instrument wax philosophical about the rawness of their music, etc., etc., etc.

I don't think there is anything wrong with not having a degree, not knowing color theory, not being proficient at your instrument. I just get sick of the excues - I don't have time, I can't afford it, there is no one to teach me.

What it really means is you would rather spend your time on something else; you either want to spend your money on something else or you don't want it bad enough to work harder and make extra money; you don't want to find a teacher or you don't want it bad enough to move somewhere there is a good teacher.

I just wish some of these people would man-up and quit making excuses. I haven't recorded my "great" ideas because it isn't important enough to me to make the time. There is nobody to blame but myself. And in 99.99999% of the cases I've seen people don't accomplish their goals because it is too much effort.

[Auguste]

Originally Posted by lfmn16

And most of the people who say a degree is overrated don't have a degree, and people who don't understand color theory argue that it isn't a big deal, and people who can't play their instrument wax philosophical about the rawness of their music, etc., etc., etc.

I don't think there is anything wrong with not having a degree, not knowing color theory, not being proficient at your instrument. I just get sick of the excues - I don't have time, I can't afford it, there is no one to teach me.

What it really means is you would rather spend your time on something else; you either want to spend your money on something else or you don't want it bad enough to work harder and make extra money; you don't want to find a teacher or you don't want it bad enough to move somewhere there is a good teacher.

I just wish some of these people would man-up and quit making excuses. I haven't recorded my "great" ideas because it isn't important enough to me to make the time. There is nobody to blame but myself. And in 99.99999% of the cases I've seen people don't accomplish their goals because it is too much effort.

Excellent commentary,

[lwknives]

Originally Posted by lfmn16

And most of the people who say a degree is overrated don't have a degree, and people who don't understand color theory argue that it isn't a big deal, and people who can't play their instrument wax philosophical about the rawness of their music, etc., etc., etc.

I don't think there is anything wrong with not having a degree, not knowing color theory, not being proficient at your instrument. I just get sick of the excues - I don't have time, I can't afford it, there is no one to teach me.

In some cases it isnt PRACTICAL. yah they could quite their job and drop out of school and spend time learning theory but it would be self destructive in some cases.

What it really means is you would rather spend your time on something else; you either want to spend your money on something else or you don't want it bad enough to work harder and make extra money; you don't want to find a teacher or you don't want it bad enough to move somewhere there is a good teacher.

IE, you shouldnt learn theory because it isnt worth it. It isnt worth it to everybody, some people are better of spending their time doing other things.

I just wish some of these people would man-up and quit making excuses. I haven't recorded my "great" ideas because it isn't important enough to me to make the time. There is nobody to blame but myself. And in 99.99999% of the cases I've seen people don't accomplish their goals because it is too much effort.

Seriously, why does it matter so much that I didnt record that song? I decided I was better of doing other things in music. I dont think its relevent to the argument. Im not blaming anybody and I am accomplishing my goals.

Yah, I should drop out of school, quite my job and get to work on getting that song recorded just so that I can prove to you that I can! Thats a fantastic Idea.
You may recall that my "excuse" for not finishing that song was that I decided to learn theory instead. I would be able to send you a recording if I HADNT learned theory.
You are right, the reason I didnt record that song is that it isnt important enough. I am working on getting getting a very challenging degree and working to pay for it. I go weeks with only an hour of practice sometimes because of HW and exams. How am a supposed to learn theory and record music on top of that. I also have had to work a full time job and a part time job in order to pay the bills. I could quit all that and record and learn theory and write music but thats not gona do me any good when I have to buy food and pay for an apartment.

[repoman]

"music" is for pussy's

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by lwknives

Seriously, why does it matter so much that I didnt record that song? I decided I was better of doing other things in music. I dont think its relevent to the argument. Im not blaming anybody and I am accomplishing my goals.

It doesn't matter at all. As a matter of fact, there are other people on this forum besides you. Not every post is directed at you.

I'm not sure why you feel you need to justify yourself to a stranger on the internet.

Read this - Tired of being average. It's how a man takes responsibility.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by lwknives

It makes it more clear the exact part of the quote I'm addressing.

No, it doesn't. It makes it look like your response is *part of* the quote you're addressing.

I personally think its a better way to quote people.

Well, you may think that, but it really isn't. The way I am quoting you in this post is better, for at least two reasons. First, it makes it more clear what is the quote, and what is the response. Second, when someone in turn responds to this post, the forum software will quote all of my response. The way you are doing it, the forum software quotes only the last part of your response. That makes it very difficult to quote your responses in a coherent way and to respond fully to your posts.

You should keep yourself open to the possibility that there are sometimes better ways to do things than one particular way that you do them, and that those other ways may have advantages that you will not realize if you get stuck in a "my way is better" mindset.

[lwknives]

Originally Posted by Febs

No, it doesn't. It makes it look like your response is *part of* the quote you're addressing.



Well, you may think that, but it really isn't. The way I am quoting you in this post is better, for at least two reasons. First, it makes it more clear what is the quote, and what is the response. Second, when someone in turn responds to this post, the forum software will quote all of my response. The way you are doing it, the forum software quotes only the last part of your response. That makes it very difficult to quote your responses in a coherent way and to respond fully to your posts.

You should keep yourself open to the possibility that there are sometimes better ways to do things than one particular way that you do them, and that those other ways may have advantages that you will not realize if you get stuck in a "my way is better" mindset.

Um... Ok.