Wot ... no 12-bars?

[Rockin John]

I got chatting to a few young guys who'd just come off stage at an open mic night. They'd be mid 20s whereas I'm 53!

I offered to do a few 12 bars with their guitarist. (The night needed livening up: they'd been doing that dour Red Hot Chilli Pepper's stuff!) A few rousing 12 bars would get the crowd going I thought. But this young man had no idea what a 12 bars was / is.

Totally unbelievable! He'd not a clue. He said he didn't know (eg) Johnnie B Goode. What's Roll Over Beethoven? Etc.

I thought he was taking the Mickey at first but he really didn't know.

So I trudged off. And they went back on to do more depressing music (IMHO of course, before anyone flames me )

It's a sad, sad day when an electric guitar player doesn't know what a 12 bar is!

John

[Poop-Loops]

There's a 30 year difference between you. What was cool in your day (the songs you listed) are just cheesy now.

Roll Over Beethoven reminds me of the movie Beethoven about the dog.

Johnnie B Goode reminds me of Back to the Future.

[Blueszilla]

Originally Posted by Poop-Loops

There's a 30 year difference between you. What was cool in your day (the songs you listed) are just cheesy now.

Chuck Berry not cool? You gotta be kidding me!

IMHO, it's just a shame if you can't improvise on the spot with some blues. What was cool in our day (dating myself here) is still cool. Just because someone younger hasn't heard it or doesn't get it like another generation does, doesn't diminish the cool factor. Everything in popular music today came from what has been. Maybe I don't have the chops like some of the other bass slingers around here (and there's a bunch), but I can get on stage in almost any situation with musicians I've never met and do whatever they want.

Playing and understanding blues changes supports almost everything else you can play.

Too bad John, those guys missed out!

[I-Love-Ratm]

I'm 19 but still know how to play 12 bar!I think every bassist and guitarist should have some idea about it!

[spc]

"I thought he was taking the Mickey at first "


Ok I get what this means in the context that you used it, but where did that awesome and soon to be used by me expression come from?

[Rockin John]

SPC said:

"... but where did that awesome and soon to be used by me expression come from?"

Nobody used those words on this thread.

Yeah, my point was that the guys should have some understanding of what a 12 bar is. I wasn't expecting them to know JB Goode or 'Beethoven, neither did I expect them to like those songs, I just thought they should be able to do a blues jam with me.

Not only did those guys miss out, I missed out too. I'm a blues man thro and thro and I really wanted a play!

John

[Alan Vorse]

I'm 32 and I feel like its a different world.

A few years ago, I was in a rock band. Our guitarist was a great blood-and-guts type of blues based soloist. One night we played with these guys-late teens, early 20s -doing some sub-par nu-metal type stuff. When we came off the stage, their 2 guitarists approched my guitarist in amazement and said "You know how to use that part of the neck above the 12th fret on the high strings! The only person I've seen do that is Tom Morello!"

[shooter_mi]

Originally Posted by Rockin John

I thought he was taking the Mickey at first but he really didn't know.

I, too, would like to know the origin of this phrase. I'll be using it regularly and need the background in case anyone accuses me of affectation.

[CraigG]

I bet if you had asked if they would jam on some blues with you there would have been a different response. I've been playing for 30 years and had to think about what you were referring to when you said "12 bars". Depending on who you work with and what their primary style is a person may or may not use the politically correct vernacular.

Craig

[Rockin John]

CraigG said:

" Depending on who you work with and what their primary style is a person may or may not use the politically correct vernacular."

WOW. Thank you sir!

Next time I'll remember to call it a Blues Jam ...

The fact is, CraigG, anyone who calls himself a guitarist (and an electric guitarist in particular, I think) SHOULD KNOW what a 12 bar is. Even if they hate 12 bars, they should know what they are. It's a pattern completely understood in western music ... apart from these blokes, it would seem.

These guys didn't know. They didn't know. They didn't know the basic blues changes upon which their music was based. I said, 'It's I IV V of the scale'. Their bassist chipped in, ' I hate scales. I'm off!' I spent about 5 minutes trying to show them but gave up cos there was clearly no point.

Call it what you like. But IT IS a 12 bar pattern.

John

[bradjonesbass]

Their bassist chipped in, ' I hate scales. I'm off!'

Okay, well then, this goes way beyond not knowing what 12 bar blues is.

[Rockin John]

For him it does, yes.... LOL

[CraigG]

Originally Posted by Rockin John

CraigG said:

WOW. Thank you sir!

Next time I'll remember to call it a Blues Jam ...

The fact is, CraigG, anyone who calls himself a guitarist (and an electric guitarist in particular, I think) SHOULD KNOW what a 12 bar is. Even if they hate 12 bars, they should know what they are. It's a pattern completely understood in western music ... apart from these blokes, it would seem.

These guys didn't know. They didn't know. They didn't know the basic blues changes upon which their music was based. I said, 'It's I IV V of the scale'. Their bassist chipped in, ' I hate scales. I'm off!' I spent about 5 minutes trying to show them but gave up cos there was clearly no point.

Call it what you like. But IT IS a 12 bar pattern.

John

Hmm. Did you happen to come across as arrogantly with them as you just seemed to with me? I could see that being a bit of a turn off to them.

Hey, show a little grace to the younger players. If they have never played blues, had lessons or opened a book on playing guitar, or they haven't networked with other players, or heard "12 bars" used to define the basics of western music they actually may not know the terminology. I suspect you had someone educate you as well at some time in your musical career. So cut them some slack and stop crying the blues.

As a veteran player you have the opportunity to share some of your expertise with younger guys. Don't blow it by being so quick to pass judgement on them and taking offense that they don't know everything you feel they should know.

Craig

[Blueszilla]

Point well taken about being patient with the young'uns, I have to agree. John's "arrogance" may well have been dumbfoundedness at what many might consider basic information.

A little tolerance and understanding goes a long way towards all of us getting along better, in almost every way...

I'll shut up now...

[Jazzin']

I never heard a 12-bar blues called a "12 bar" before. But I would understand what is mean't if someone said it.

[Steve Clark]

Taking the mickey = pulling my leg

[kserg]

Originally Posted by Blueszilla

Chuck Berry not cool? You gotta be kidding me!

26 here, mess around with Chuck Berry stuff all the time. It's so much fun to play.

I think people who don't know this stuff or don't find this stuff fun are just dumb, poops.

Originally Posted by I-Love-Ratm

I'm 19 but still know how to play 12 bar!I think every bassist and guitarist should have some idea about it!

every "good" bassist/guitarist that is...

Originally Posted by Blueszilla

What was cool in our day (dating myself here) is still cool.

Oh it is, plenty of times here in San Jose I've seen young kids sing to and enjoy stuff that you are talking about.

[Rugaar]

Originally Posted by Steve Clark

Taking the mickey = pulling my leg

Yep.

Taking the Mickey

[manicbassman]

Originally Posted by Rockin John

CraigG said:

WOW. Thank you sir!

Next time I'll remember to call it a Blues Jam ...

The fact is, CraigG, anyone who calls himself a guitarist (and an electric guitarist in particular, I think) SHOULD KNOW what a 12 bar is. Even if they hate 12 bars, they should know what they are. It's a pattern completely understood in western music ... apart from these blokes, it would seem.

These guys didn't know. They didn't know. They didn't know the basic blues changes upon which their music was based. I said, 'It's I IV V of the scale'. Their bassist chipped in, ' I hate scales. I'm off!' I spent about 5 minutes trying to show them but gave up cos there was clearly no point.

Call it what you like. But IT IS a 12 bar pattern.

John

they don't know because they're tab players... all they know is the songs they know and they've learned them using tab. They've got no theory behind them...

IF they are playing a 12 bar song, they won't actually know they're playing a 12 bar song or why the chords go as they do...

They won't know what a I or IV chord is... they'll be using chord charts to get the fingerings, but won't be able to assemble a chord from the name.

[kserg]

Originally Posted by CraigG

As a veteran player you have the opportunity to share some of your expertise with younger guys. Don't blow it by being so quick to pass judgement on them and taking offense that they don't know everything you feel they should know.

The bassist said he "hates scales".

I mean, not all hope is lost, at least he didn't add that he hates strings as well.

Whether or not John was arrogant in conversation matters not IMO, I think all hope is lost for those guys. They will give up their instruments in a year and never play again. To me "musicians" like that seem to be in it to be cool, not for the love of music.