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  #1  
Old 07-10-2006, 08:58 PM
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writing songs (2)

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i made this same thread in the general instruction thread but not too many people hang out there and i would really like to get this kind of thread rolling so i hope it does

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyondhairy
do you notice thatw hen writing music, it ends up sounding like its a song that didnt end up on the latest album of your favorite band because it was too bland?


what is the corner stone of your song writing?

most of the time i get inspired from listening to some of my favorite songs and the song i write ends up sounding like the mainstream song i just listened to.


not lyrically, im not the best with words so i dont write many lyrics but the music itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tZer
Good question - and if an answer comes from this thread, it will probably signal a significant up-turn in quality new songs being released in the next few years.

I have wanted to get a 'song-discussion' club together (like a book discussion club) with the intent to disect music we all like and attempt to identify the elements that make it so appealing to us. This all in a effort to generate some sort of understanding of the various 'hook' elements and how they could be used/reused to write 'hits' right out of the gate.

I think what makes a song interesting is picking a focal point and driving it home. That focus could be a really clever or interesting lyric or lyrical treatment - an irresistible beat or groove - a really hooky guitar lick or sound... All or any of these in combination. But what gets me is a really clear, solid idea that lives through the entire song.

I battle with my more 'singer/songwriter' friend constantly trying to get him to be less introspective and more 'universally relate-able' - which really makes a singer/songwriter queesy. But for me, word-smiths like Elvis Costello or Andy Partridge craft some of the most interesting, clever lyrics matched effortlessly with amazingly groovy and cool music.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyondhairy
thats a great idea, too bad not too many people hang around in the general instruction thread


well i think to get to the base of writing good music is writing the kind of music you like listening to. and in general the kind of music i love is really heavy music, i dont mean super fast music with screaming vocals, i hate that stuff. i mean heavy, like some of my favorite bands, tool, nin, a perfect circle, marilyn manson. hell even queen is super heavy. not fast at all but pretty damn heavy.

this is the current song im working on, i usuly write them down in guitar pro and export as midis for my band mates to check out.

still working on the drums and its the rest is noplace near done, but try and guess which band influenced this song


http://www.megaupload.com/?d=9LSAUQOY

that was all that i got going in the other thread thats been up for a day or two. and im pretty sure that vast majority of us write songs and would like to get some tips so please lets hear your technique
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  #2  
Old 07-11-2006, 09:11 AM
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Ok - I started to contribute but realized that I have way too much to say. So I added it to my blog that you can find here:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/journa...rnal&j=30#e140

Exerpts/Highlights of the blog include:
  • My taste - how I hear music and what appeals to me.
  • Instrumentation - What about the guitars, bass, drums, vocals, etc. that inspires me to write the way I do
  • Subject Matter - topics and how they are treated
  • The process - drafting a song for myself and for other to work on
  • Final - getting it to 'tape'

DISCLAIMER: I really have no material that is 'final' that is completely my own. I have been fortunate to be a part of a lot of other writer's projects, but have only recently seen the door open for me to take the steps I outline in my blog. But that does not change the relevance of my process. It is my process and I am confident it a good one and will yield good, upbeat, alt-pop/rock songs - soon!
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Last edited by tZer : 07-11-2006 at 09:56 AM.
  #3  
Old 07-11-2006, 09:36 AM
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oooo thats a great run down, hope you dont mind but im going to paste all that in here, might inspire people to add their 2 cents too, its certainly inspired me to write a detaield report like that

not now thoug, run to the post office


oh, i listened to popcorn too, it started off pretty funky and i dug it a lot but half way throug it got a bit too busy

Quote:
Originally Posted by tZer
General Musical Genre
My musical tastes are broad and include hard rock, pop, jazz, fusion, jam, funk, RnB and so on, but when it comes to writing, I tend to fall into a more narrow niche - upbeat pop-ish/rock-ish/alt-ish/novelty; is such a niche exists. Groups that characterize this pop style include:

1. XTC
2. David Bowie
3. Psychedelic Furs
4. U2
5. The Jam/The Beat
6. Oingo Boingo
7. Elvis Costello
8. Devo
9. R.E.M.

Identifying Characteristics
The characteristics of these songs are made up of:

* the instrumentation and vocals and how the parts are used
* the subject matter of the songs
* the production
* the packaging or marketing.

These example groups, to me, have some very similar qualities in their songs. Being that these groups are different from each other in many ways, this is probably more of a comment on how I hear them rather then how they write. The things I hear in these groups' songs that I respond to include:

Instrumentation/Vocals

DRUMS - Simple, but intricate beats. The grooves that these groups use are not 'chock-full' of drums - but more often then not, there is a simple, fundamental drum beat that has sublte, and interesting accentuations - a really clever hi-hat; an interesting bass drum off beat; a cool tom-tom part - and so on. They also tend NOT to sound 'produced' like much of the 80's hair-band and metal sounded like. They have more of a 'room' quality and sound like the real drums, not the reverb, EQ, or other sonic maximizers.

BASS - The basslines are usually interesting. That does not necessarily mean they are too busy or complex. Again, like the drums, the basslines tend to have a cool overall sound, an interesting, simple, but not-too-common pattern, and they are also usually rather prominent, but not the main focus. They tend to sound 'middy' but not 'ultra-bright' - picked, or very tight sounding notes. Sometimes, like in Oingo Boingo, the bass can be quite 'jazz-complex' sounding, but for the most part the basslines are more 'hooky' and 'simple' but make a huge contribution to the overall song. So to me, it sounds like the writer 'appreciates' the bass and does not think of it a just another 'means to a root'.

GUITAR - The guitars are almost always interesting and rarely common sounding. They use effects, well effectively; the parts they write are not just power chords but they are also not super-heady jazz, 'add this, augment that, diminsh the other' chords. At times there is a very 'retro' quality to the guitar that is really cool. They have a simple, but distinctive sound - like a Strat or Tele through a Fender 2x12 - or a Rickenbacker 12-string.

VOCALS - Many of the groups I listed above write really great lyrics. What makes them great to me is that they are usually intelligent, clever, not too serious, visually stimulating, and relatable. They are sung with a 'personality' that communicates these traits very clearly. Many times you will hear the same artist use very different vocal approaches throughout their catalog of songs (David Bowie) - Other times, the vocalist has such a unique and distinctive quality to their voice that defines the sound of their songs for the most part (Psychedelic Furs, XTC, The Jam, Elvis Costello). But always, the vocals, lyrics and vocal treatment is, like the music, distinctive, appropriate, and focuses on it's role in the overall song.

ADDITIONAL INSTRUMENTATION - Many, if not most of the groups above include instruments like organ, piano, synthesizer, flute, mandolin, etc... to fill out the musical color spectrum. Following the themes established above - these additional instruments do the same. Have interesting qualities; are not over-done or intrusive; and serve a clear purpose in the overall song's delivery.

The Subject Matter - (or does it?)

I am personally put-off by overly serious lyrical content. Then I realize that many times, even when I think I know a song, I am not completely sure if I know what the song is about - so, take that for what it is worth. I said I am put-off by overly serious subject matter - but I guess what I mean to say is that I a put-off by groups that sound like they take themselves too seriously - like "Nickelback" or "Creed" or "Live" - When I hear these groups, I just get mad - so I don't listen to these groups - that's just me.

Now Elvis Costello's "Veronica" is really a rather serious song. However the way it is presented is so clever, hooky, and irresistible, that the seriousness of the subject matter is much more palatable. Honestly, a song about an elderly woman's decent into dimensia is pretty serious subject matter.

Same with XTC's "Dear God" - Last I checked, heretical content probably was history's first definition of serious subject matter. And yet the way Andy Partridge treats this subject lyrically and vocally is again, irresistible. It moves along with a gait that you would not normally expect a song about questioning the existence of God to have and the supporting instrumentation is so colorful and light that once again, a serious subject is rendered very listenable and consumable. It is not rammed down your throat - it is offered with interesting spices and condements to make you more interested in tasting it.

Now David Bowie and Elvis Costello each have a way with a story - fictional or non, and the intelligence of these two authors is undeniable. When you listen to the tales these two weave about things as mundane as a pair of red shoes or a trip into space, you are instantly either standing in those shoes or hurling toward the moon wondering if you will ever return. That is good stuff.

All of these groups have examples of subject matter that is really rather 'irrelevant' to much of anything other then providing a lyrical mesh to bind a song together with. The lyrics are chosen because of their rhythmic qualities and are sung more as if the singer were playing another instrument in the band as opposed to telling you some sort of story that required your full attention. They seamlessly blend the vocalists role in with that of the guitar, bass, keys and drums. This is not to say that the lyrics don't tell a story or that the story does not matter - but the point of the song is not necessarily to tell the story, but to paint the picture.

So it is safe to say that all manner of subject matter can be included, but in order for it to resonate with me it has to do much of the same thing as the instrumentation - be interesting to the ear or hooky and for me, upbeat and fun to listen to. I like my music fun. Remember, this is about how I hear music and what I respond to.

Production - what those other magicians do

The production of a song is as important as the song itself. The biggest mistake that gets made, in my opinion, is when the production overtakes the song. I feel like genres of music that rely on the production 'taking the song to the next level' include:

* Hair Metal (Poison, Bon Jovi, Ratt)
* Bubble-gum pop (Britney Spears, all that ilk)
* Heavy Metal (Metallica, Megadeath, etc.)


This is not to say that these groups or artists do not write worth while material (although I would argue they do not) - rather that the production of their final product takes the original product and alters it to a point that it really does not resemble what the artist originally created. Mostly out of necessity due to the fact that what the artist originally created needed so much help to become marketable. When I can 'hear' the production, I am automatically turned off. I don't like my drums to sound like bazookas and what is with all that compression and reverb? Come on... a little more reality, a little less 'magic', huh?

What I like about production is when you feel like you can hear the personality of each musician involved. You can tell that is is a Strat through a Fender 2x12 - you can tell that it is a Rickenbacker 4001 with a pick - you can tell that the singer is in the same room with the piano. This does not mean I want all 'acoustic, single-mic, room recordings' but I do NOT want it to sound like it was recorded on some other planet where the real sound does not exist.

Marketing
When these artists finish their products, they present it to you the way they would like you to hear it. So when they put on the retro shoes, or the make-up, or even the costumes, it tells you more about where they came from when they created their music. Was it fantasy? Was it an exotic location? Was it another point in time? I want to see it on the CD liner - read it in their notes - see it in the photographs that they choose to show us.


PART II - How I write

When I write a song I find that I consistently tend to start with a beat or groove in mind. Because I like upbeat and alt-pop/rocky stuff, when a beat runs through my head that embodies those qualities, I run with it. I can usually hear the general instrumentation right away and can begin piecing it together alone with the idea that I will be able to effectively explain to my musician friends what I hear and what I need them to do.

My intent is to get my main idea across but to let them take it to the next level because of their individual expertise. That usually means choosing the right musician for the job. I have many guitar player friends each of whom are very different then the other in style and approach. Same with drummers. I don't know many piano/keyboardists - so I usually write something using midi and let that sit until I find someone.

My process
The computer and midi. I sit down at the computer and 99% of the time start with the drums. This is because I need something solid to play over. My initial drum beats are simple and are an outline of the bigger idea that I hear in my head. Again, I plan to let the real drummers do the good stuff, so I don't try to overdo the 'robot drums'. I don't want to overly color anyone's inspiration.

After the drums go down I go for the bassline. Again, I use midi. When I say 'midi' what I mean is that I write my parts using the 'piano roll' - a grid that lets you precisely place notes, durations, velocities, etc. then assign those patterns to synthesized sounds. I do it this way because I can hear the part pretty clearly in my head - and it does tend to be 'repetitious' - and what is better for a repetitious task then 'cut and paste'. Bear in mind that I am 'drafting' the song and have no intention of this robotic, cut-and-paste product to ever be 'released' other then to help explain to my collaborators their parts.

The rest of the instrumentation gets initially laid in the same way. Sometimes I will break out my Strat and lay down some simple guitar, if it better serves my needs insofaras communicating the part to a 'real' guitar player. This usually means that I do have a specific guitar treatment that I hear and want them to emulate.

After all the piano-rolling is done, I listen to it and see if the 'idea' is getting hit. Does it make me want to move? Does it make me smile? Did I remain true to the initial idea? If so... good! Call the gang and let's get a jam session together. If not, why? Did the beat go wonky? Did the bassline miss the slot?... Fix it.

Sometimes the idea is just not as good as it sounded in my head. Sometimes it has just gone stale for me in the process. If the latter is true, then time away will usually revive the idea.

Gettin' er done!
The final phase is to present it to the gang. I pick the musicians I feel will best interpret my idea and ask them to join me in a 'gel session'. I have learned over time that I hear things in very clear detail, but not everyone does. So in order for me to best communicate my goals, I have to reference other artists and specific songs to make sure everyone is listening to my rough draft with the same 'ears'.

After we get on the same page, we reconstruct what I did midi-wise, real-wise. Drummer on drums, me on bass, guitar player(s) on guitar(s) and so on. Roll 'tape' - hopefully catch magic.

This is how I write - ok, nothing I have written has ever gotten to the final stage - yet. I have many songs in the draft stage (over 20) and some date back as far as 1990 and exist as really bad, 4-track tape recordings. I am happy to say that even the 17 year old stuff still holds up in my head and I have every intention of getting them to the 'real' stage before I sluff off this mortal coil. The biggest obstacle to my being able to get these up to that level sooner is that I get called upon by my song writing friends to participate in their projects that are a lot more 'band' oriented and take a lot of time. I am getting closer, however. I recent months many puzzle pieces have been falling together in a way that really lead me to believe I will be dusting off the 'drafts' and getting them onto tape for all to hear in the near future.

But all-in-all, this is how I go about writing the way I do.

Here is one sample of an idea that I have drafted using the method above. This is a very early draft and does not reflect a 'complete' song idea, rather it is the general approach - the groove, the voicings, the overall texture. I call it 'Popcorn' for now, because of how the xylophone part sounds.

Have a listen: Popcorn

When I have a chance to revisit it, I will add more structure to this 'song' and it will go to the 'final' stage.

More to come...

--tz
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Last edited by beyondhairy : 07-11-2006 at 09:38 AM.
  #4  
Old 07-11-2006, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beyondhairy
oooo thats a great run down, hope you dont mind but im going to paste all that in here...
Not at all. I was concerned because it was getting so wordy - but if you think it is useful, use it! LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyondhairy
oh, i listened to popcorn too, it started off pretty funky and i dug it a lot but half way throug it got a bit too busy
Yeah, I know. But it is a good illustration of how you can 'draft' a song the way I describe (midi - piano roll - no 'real instruments') - It is not hard to hear the overall idea even if the structure is not intact.

But that's the hard thing about turning early draft ideas loose - they are usually not ready for other ears. I can hear the evolution, but I cannot expect others to hear it with 'my ears'. But I still hear the ideas that spawned it and have confidence that I can take it to the next level - someday.

Using Popcorn as a case-study - I was hearing an 80's 'new wave' song, kind of along the line of a Gary Newman-ish thing - Maybe even the Thompson Twins-ish... But I really liked the middy, slap bass thing and I was hearing that a lot in the 80's wave stuff. Also, the disjointed synth part (the hook) - reminded me of that era. Speaking instrumentally, I had songs and artists like "One Night in Bancock", Peter Schilling's "Coming Home" - Oingo Boing, Thomas Dolby, and so on... That whole ilk of music is what inspired the approach on "Popcorn".

I have a friend in Athens, GA who would be my 'goto' guy to help get this song to the next level. He has an intricate understanding of that 80's 'synth-pop' world that would require very little explanation from me for him to 'get it'.

--tz
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Last edited by tZer : 07-11-2006 at 10:09 AM.
  #5  
Old 07-11-2006, 02:01 PM
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well, id like to say that my taste in music is pretty eclectic, but its not anymore. there are just way too many sub genres to keep up with, and most of the new wave of "music" is just too horrible to even classify as music. so, the genres and bands im most into revolve around the classic rock to metal genres, the bands that im most into are as follows:

(in alphabetical order)
1)A Perfect circle
2)Lordi
3)Marilyn Manson
4)Metallica
5)NIN
6)Queen
7)Queens of the stone age
8)Rammstein
9)tool


Whats probably already noticable is that for the most part, the bass doesnt always follow any other instrument more then any other instrument follows the bass. thats what i like about these bands, nothing needs to be overlapped to sound heavy, for the most part anyway, there are more than enough overlapping parts but thats just because it fits.

so now, i believe to get to the core of writing good songs is to ask yourself why, and what. why are you writing music and what do you want to write about. do you want to write music to get people dancing or tape their foot to? or do you want to write music that gets people thinking about something.

when im looking at what each instrument does to/for me while listening to it, different parts of my body move when i hear different frequencies, like, when i hear drums, my legs move, when i hear bass, my core moves, when i hear guitar, my arms move, and my head usualy ends of moving to the keys.

so if i were to take that into consideration while writing music, i could use my body as a starting point and just start moving randomly and see what kind of vibe i get and try to make music out of that.


but if im feeling lazy ill just sit infront of my computer without even holding my bass and open up guitar pro and try to get more technical with my song writing. and since im a bass player thats usualy where is tart off from. i find it kind of hard for me to program drums without it going a long with another structure. drums are something that i really need to play to get a nice beat going.


this is usualy where some of my other friends come in. im no trent reznor. and im not too into playing much industrial even thoug i love listening to it. so i try to get some guitar playing friends to write some solos here and there, or my drummer friends to come up with some nice beats.

subject matter -
where my taste differs from tZer, is that i like my subject matter to usualy be a bit more on the serious side. growing up, i wasnt the most populer kid in the school yeard. i was the fat poor kid with the dandruf and the speach impediment and the hand-me-down cloths and no friends, and i was picked on quite a bit so the music i usualy gravitate towerds are the bands that revolve around fighting for revolutions and fighting for evolution, fighting for love and respect and sometimes even fear.

i guess this is why tool is my favorite band, even when they play their slow melodic bits, they are just so heavy and in your face with aw inspiering divinity. and technicaly speaking, you dont need to be all over the fretboard to be heavy, for the most part they just play in D and they rotate around the same 5-6 notes but they carry them above and beyond.


marketing/production -
i dont think this is a major part of music, when i put my headphones on, the only images i see are the ones inside my head. thats how it should be, but i do like when the band takes a little extra step, like the latest tool cd, probably the best packaging i have ever seen.

front cover

when you open up the front cover, it has a booklet of stereoscopic images that you use the acompanied lenses with.

heres the best way i can define a steroscopic image, a human being has two eyes, each eye has its own focal point but when both eyes are open, both focal points merge to create depth persepction. thats whats going on here. two cameras are set side by side and snapped at the same time, so when you look at the prints at teh same time at a certain distance, you get a 3d image with full depth perception. i tried to scan some in and make a gif animation to show it, but its nowhere near as cool if u had the actual thing in front of you, i made them a gif animation to best show the depth, but not the greatest.






this piece i was working on originally started off as just a bass line, and i slowed it down considerable because i thought it sounded better slower, this will probably be shown to the band soon and turned inside out and then be used as an intro to another song im working on

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  #6  
Old 07-11-2006, 03:05 PM
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well when i read beyond hairy talking about listening to popcorn i thought that was something used to come up with new rhythmic patterns, well that's not what he was talking about but it gave me an idea for some possibly funky beats
  #7  
Old 07-11-2006, 03:58 PM
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beyondhairy - looks like you got the ball rolling!

And labgnat - the idea of listening to popcorn for rhythmic ideas... hmmm... l like it!

I did a piano piece for a friend's art exhibition that had a 'Water' theme. The piece was called 'Rain' and it started with a very randomly spaced 'plinking' piano-note water drops... very much like when popcorn begins to pop - starts slow, then evolves into a 'storm'. Inspiration can come from lots of places!

Now I am hungry.
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Old 01-19-2007, 04:23 PM
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i want to bump this and get some ideas rolling..
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  #9  
Old 01-19-2007, 05:30 PM
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A short study I did on Musical Form.

Musical Form Study
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