Argument about whether kickstarter campaigns are appropriate for TB

[damonsmith]

OK, all the bumps make me have to say I don't know how appropriate cyber-begging is here. The main thing that makes me say it is the $8000 goal. Having run a label myself for 10 years I have to say that just doesn't add up in any sense, I have 11 beautiful packaged albums pressed in editions of 1000 and 3 done in editions of 500. The most I EVER spent on pressing was $1200.
Any jazz/improvised music production that needs that kind of budget should have it from the beginning, not hoping for it at the end.
Not mention, the project already has a grant.
With digital distribution "post-production" has gotten cheaper not more expensive. Pressing 1000 cds, paying for liners, design, mastering etc. is going to run about $3000 on the high end.

These days starting with 300-500 cds is more sensible so that should get it under $1500 - for lavish packaging. I think pressing 300-500 professional looking cds and getting solid digital distribution would be a more sensible start for the project.

I am sure all the expenses can be justified, but if it is a successful and worthwhile project most of that should be recouped from sales.
Asking a foundation for 8 grand for post-production is one thing but to ask, friends, fans and others for it just doesn't sit right with me. I can make at least 10 album productions for that amount, which brings us to the point that many of us have our own productions in the can we are not spending $8000 on!
The bottom line is that when you need $8000 to make an album, Manfred Eicher will call you!


Sorry to be a bummer and happy thanksgiving - the bass playing, the music and the project seems amazing, I do wish you luck with it - it just might be in your interest to be more modest in what you are asking others.

[damonsmith]

Even for production and promotion that is still high. For half that you can get a good product, get it in the hands of critics and buy a couple ads. After that point some $$$ should be coming back in and can be re-invested.

Asking for some bread to get your album out is one thing, asking for a major label promo budget just doesn't seem that cool, sorry.

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

OK, all the bumps make me have to say I don't know how appropriate cyber-begging is here.
Sorry to be a bummer and happy thanksgiving

Cyber-begging? You are kidding right, Damon?
Yeah, I guess. We all know that the world of great creative music is So, no matter the genre, filled with outrageous financial rewards that we can take cheap shots at another creative brother bassist (there ARE so many of us!) trying to pull the $ bunny outta the great American hat of huge financial gain.
Happy Thanksgiving to you as well, Brother.
EDIT: I'll definately be bumping this thread at Christmas.

[damonsmith]

No, I am sorry to feel I have to say it. I don't think anyone here is evil and I think he is a great player with a solid project. I am not even saying you shouldn't use this method to fund projects.

All I am saying is that I think it is excessive.

[alexisbass]

Hi all, and especially Damon

First off, I am a bit disappointed that this has become more of an argument than a "healthy" post. Having said that, I'd like to clarify some of the issues that you raise:

1) The Kickstarter campaign is a nice initiative for independent artists like myself to get funding for projects. We're not asking for money, we're basically selling our stuff online in advance of a project. This particular project offers a number of rewards that I think are actually really cool. I would not call this "cyber-begging", because it's an inaccurate adjective. Begging would be asking for money in exchange of nothing.

2) Here's the breakdown of my expenses that I still need to pay for to finish the production of this CD:

$2000 pressing (1000 digipacks with a booklet, shipping from factory included)
$1000 graphic design (bargain deal from a good friend)
$1000 Video production(ditto on the deal from a friend)
$1000 Photography (more bargains)
$3000 Publicity (still a bargain given the prices that publicists charge these days).

This does not include the 5% fee that kickstarter takes or the 4% fee that amazon payments takes. Nor includes the shipping costs of all the CDs that I will send to backers.

I am just exposing the facts.

And of course you can always have the option of not liking the project, not believing what I say and post whatever you want. If you do that though, just make sure it's factually accurate before doing so.

Thanks so much!

First off, I am a bit disappointed that this has become more of an argument than a "healthy" post. Having said that, I'd like to clarify some of the issues that you raise:

1) The Kickstarter campaign is a nice initiative for independent artists like myself to get funding for projects. We're not asking for money, we're basically selling our stuff online in advance of a project. This particular project offers a number of rewards that I think a

[damonsmith]

Look, a lot people seem to not argee with me, but that sounds like a budget for a Dave Holland album!
Spending 6 grand on publicist, video, photography and design is certainly possible but if you don't have the bread there are ways around it.
Stuffing your own promo envelopes can save you the $3000. There are TONS of free internet promo opportunities that just takes your time to do it.
Also, $20 is no longer market rate for a cd so the "selling your product in advance" doesn't sit well either.


The things you list are all wonderful things we could all use for our projects, but just are not realistic for the way most of us are able to do things. Not to mention they are unlikey to recoup in this day and age so are mainly luxury items that would mainly help your career - never a bad thing, though!

I'm not by any means saying you should scrap the project but scaling it back is going make it more realistic - more in line with what other musicians might be able to do ourselves.

I am also just trying to add a realistic perspective based on my experience running a label that has even sold out some pressings.

A final point, if you were just asking for $2000 for the pressing, you'd be half way there!

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Yes, many of us do disagree with you. Many of us don't need to have the moral imprimatur of your support, so why not just sashay off?

The same could be said to any of us when expressing an informed opinion on here - which is something you like to do fairly often.
How many albums have you made? From the ground up?
Last I checked this is a DISCUSSION BOARD. Don't post anything on here that isn't up for discussion.

[damonsmith]

It seems like I struck two nerves, one with the cyber-begging comment and one about the budget.
Everytime I log into face book I see another kickstarter link for one thing or the other so I guess that is were that comes from.

I know it might seem like I am just being an ass but I just honestly don't feel right about it. Most of us here are working bassists and we'd all LOVE a lavish top of the line cd production with a publicist and pro-photos, video, etc. I'd guess plenty of us have said project recorded and in some stage production right now.

So it isn't really about putting anyone in a their place as being realistic about our means.

What happens when each of us puts together a kickstarter campaign for a $100,000 bass?

I'd love to see the cd come out, as I have said several times, and sincerely hope it does.

P.S. my girlfriend was the main grant writer for the SF Symphony before she left to go to Rice, so I am certainly not against grants!

[alexisbass]

If I may, let's all just focus on making good music. To each his own (budgets, albums, grants and whatever).

I regret that this thread got this tone, so I'm going to try to erase it and re-post. For the benefit of everyone.

Thanks all!

Alexis

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Thread split. If anyone has concerns about anything being against the forum rules, please feel free to report it. There's no need to try to police the forums yourself. If you'd like to continue this discussion, please do it here rather than in the other thread.