Bluegrass time feel

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I've been playing a really fun series at the Jazz Factory here in town called "Bluegrass meets Jazz". Basically, it's just what it sounds like - a couple of accomplished jazz players jamming with some accomplished grass players with both venturing into the world of the other. It's been a lot of fun, and I hope to keep doing it. Last night, I got to play with 'grass fiddler Michael Cleveland and a couple of other really fine players, and while I had a great time, I also realize that I have a lot to learn about the bluegreass time feel.

In short, the main feedback I keep getting is that my sound is good, my scaled-down harmonic approach is right on the money, and all of the notes I am playing are just right...but that I need to play more on top of the beat in order to drive the band. A couple of the comments I heard were that the bass player should be "like the hood ornament on the front of the car", or that I should be playing sonically from the position of an olympic ski jumper..."leaning forward on the skis". I was playing so on top last night that I felt like I was already into the next tune on the setlist, but heard that I could have been even more on top.

I'd love to hear any experiences you guys may have about learning to feel time in this way, and maybe some suggestions for a few things to listen to to help absorb this concept. God knows, in jazz I can rush with the best of 'em , but no amount of espresso could prepare me for how on top these guys want the bass to be. Anecdotes? Stories? Questions, comments, insights, inspirations?

[lowEndRick]

Chris- I probably have no business replying to your post. You are for sure a much more accompished player than I am. I've been playing guitar all my life, but I only started on DB a few months ago. I've gotten an embarrassingly large amount of praise and astonishment from the pros that I jam with at our bluegrass jams. Its not because of all the technique and skill that I've acquired. Its because, as I've been told repeatedly, I have a natural feel for the bluegrass groove. I don't know how it happened. I just kinda fell into it somehow. I think it helps that I drive a lot for work and listen to endless amounts of bluegrass while plucking away on my steering wheel.

I do some other things that I think help:
1. When I'm playing I'm always moving. Even if its just a subtle sway. Its sort of a zen way of locking my whole being into the groove.

2. The other thing is that my right hand becomes sort of like a metronome. I almost always pluck on the 1 and 3 and then lightly slap (or make the motion of slapping) on the 2 and 4 to capture the emphasis that this music has. Of course you don't want to repeatedly slap. So I'll make the motion to keep time, but stop short of slapping and make no noise at all on the 2 and 4.

Don't know if this helps. Like I said this is all new to me. I have a long way to go with technique and theory, but I'm living on the groove right now and getting invited to play with a lot of people.

[jimclark68]

It's so hard to use verbal language to describe something like that. I was just sitting here trying to think of how to describe playing on top of the beat, and it's hard, just as hard as trying to describe how to lay back on the beat and swing without playing slow. When I play up-tempo bluegrass or folk tunes, it helps me to think of people out front dancing. When you really do play music like that for a dancing crowd, you get immediate feedback from the rhythm of the dancing if you're not on top of the beat.

That sounds like a cool hang - as you know, BG is big in these parts as well and a blast to play. Especially if you're jamming with Michael Cleveland.

[Damon Rondeau]

I've got a quick 5 minute window here before I head off to an appointment...

Something tells me they might be overstating things a bit with the "get WAAAAY on top of it" thing. If you feel you were way on top, you likely were. You know what you're doing.

I find it's important to make sure the two-feel isn't rythmically monotonous. There needs to be some differentiation between the two beats. I like to get some emphasis on the second beat -- it distinguishes it from the first and keeps things moving forward.

Here's another weird thing: I find things move forward better when you move from the root down to the five, not up.

When these two things are moving together just right -- and your band is holding their end of the bargain, especially whoever's chunking on 2 and 4 -- then the tune starts to breathe a bit and feels fine.

But you gotta get rid of that jazz swing!

Off to my meeting.

[anonymous0726]

The best way that I can describe it in the 30 seconds that I have is this:

Dont' go for fat, greasy New Orleans type of 2/4 feel, and get a lighter and longer sound that you do with any jazz 2/4 groove. Then, feel a long 4/4 (two bars) and walk. Think really light and springy and like a beach ball bouncing off the the peaks of the groove. Getting a more darkish and thumpy sound makes this a lot easier as well...

[mchildree]

I wonder if maybe your note duration isn't what these guys are hearing....typically bg players don't have much sustain and it leaves lots of room behind the note. If you aren't already, try playing the notes a little more staccato. I don't really concentrate on playing ahead of the beat all the time, since we play some swinging-feel stuff too. On the really fast stuff, think "drive"...as if you are the motor pushing the band forward. Sounds dumb, but it helps.

[mchildree]

I must say that it is a pleasant surprise to hear an educated Jazz bassist ask questions about bluegrass bass. All too often, I feel like we're the Remedial Class of the URB school.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by mchildree

I must say that it is a pleasant surprise to hear an educated Jazz bassist ask questions about bluegrass bass. All too often, I feel like we're the Remedial Class of the URB school.

Not at all. The bluegrass thing is every bit as hard to do well, it's just minimalistic notewise, which puts more emphasis on timing and duration. I have every reason to believe that learning to play better grass will help me to play better jazz, since it will force me to focus on minute details of articulation and timing.

The advice given so far is great, and I'll definitely read this thread many times as I look to get better. In the meantime, though, what about "must have" recordings? Does bluegrass have a "Ray Brown" type figure for bass?

[mchildree]

Some of my favorites:

Any of the Bluegrass Album Band recordings...that's a great intro to the style, all it's own. (Todd Phillips on bass)
"Del & The Boys" - Del McCoury Band (Mike Bub on bass)
Anything by Mountain Heart (Jason Moore on bass)
"White House" - White House (Missy Raines on bass)
"Bluegrass Rules" or "Ancient Tones" by Ricky Skaggs & Kentucky Thunder (Mark Fain on bass)

If you want to get a little more to the "outside" of bluegrass:

"Drive" by Bela Fleck
"Manzanita" by Tony Rice Unit

These suggestions are purposely from the newer school of bluegrass. IMO, the bass playing on the old classics really isn't up to par with the newer stuff.

[lowEndRick]

Mike Bub, T. Michael Coleman, Mark Schatz, Missy Raines just to name a few. There's lots more!

[lowEndRick]

http://ibluegrass.com/vi_posting3.CF...__r=&p__a=bass

iBluegrass.com Article
The Low End
Jul-01-2000
©2000 iBluegrass.com. All rights reserved.
By Kip Martin

I'm often asked who my favorite bassists are. Well, no one ever asks me that question, so let's suppose someone actually did ask. My list of "favorite" bluegrass bassists would include:

1.) Missy Raines
2.) Mike Bub
3.) Nick Forrester
4.) Jenny Keel
5.) Barry Bales
6.) Mickey Harris
7.) Roy Husky, Jr.
8.) Jack Cooke
9.) Marshall Wilborn
10.) Ronnie Bowman

click the link for the rest of the article

[Steve Killingsworth]

Originally Posted by mchildree

I wonder if maybe your note duration isn't what these guys are hearing....typically bg players don't have much sustain and it leaves lots of room behind the note. .

I think Mike is on to something here. The average bluegrass bass is not in the same class as your LaScala--especially with tone and sustain. Thummmm thummmm will definitely stand out to folks used to hearing thump thump.

On the other hand, I once played with a group who were obsessed with my being just ahead of the beat. I had problems satisfying them until I made a slight adjustment to my technique. I had a tendency to lightly rest my finger on the string just before I pulled it. I changed my approach to where I began pulling the string as soon as I touched it. From that point on, the band was content with my timing.

Oh yeah, don't forget Byron House (who does a lot more than just 'grass) when you are discussing bluegrass masters.

[jimclark68]

+1 on Mike's point about note duration, technique, type of bass/setup/strings, etc., that was a good point.

Neighbor Mike R, you out there? Mike Ramsey will have some good insights into this as well. Of course, with BG festival season well underway, many of our bluegrassers will be AWOL until after the weekend.

[Damon Rondeau]

Originally Posted by Steve Killingsworth

I think Mike is on to something here. The average bluegrass bass is not in the same class as your LaScala--especially with tone and sustain. Thummmm thummmm will definitely stand out to folks used to hearing thump thump.

On the other hand, I once played with a group who were obsessed with my being just ahead of the beat. I had problems satisfying them until I made a slight adjustment to my technique. I had a tendency to lightly rest my finger on the string just before I pulled it. I changed my approach to where I began pulling the string as soon as I touched it. From that point on, the band was content with my timing.

Oh yeah, don't forget Byron House (who does a lot more than just 'grass) when you are discussing bluegrass masters.

The last thing you want is a soggy time feel.

Listen to some real good flatpicking guitar players play time, too. That pick just snaps the bass notes on 1 and 3, really snaps them. A fine flatpicking guitar is built for just that sort of sound. I think that's the sort of effect folks are looking for and, of course, that sort of attack is really hard to get on the Big Gal.

Long tones can work, but as I say above, avoid monotony. BUMP--BAAAAH is better than BUMP--BUMP. To my ears, anyway.

[mchildree]

Hey Chris, when you're playing this stuff, try to place a light muted slap on your strings where the mandolin chop goes on the 2 and 4...it helps to establish the groove. At least it does for me.

[ctxbass]

Originally Posted by mchildree

Hey Chris, when you're playing this stuff, try to place a light muted slap on your strings where the mandolin chop goes on the 2 and 4...it helps to establish the groove. At least it does for me.

+1
I play bluegrass gigs on an irregular basis and it kicks my a** every time. I can play fast swing, jump blues, etc., but bluegrass is a whole different set of chops. I find a similarity to swing in that you need to push the beat but keep it in the same place (if that makes any sense). Just keep punching it out.

[nicklloyd]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

Here's another weird thing: I find things move forward better when you move from the root down to the five, not up.

Very well put.

[Damon Rondeau]

Thanks, Nn. Now I'll try and wreck it...

I think the reason this works is 'cause it provides a kind of rhythmic leading tone, it gives you a kind of alley oop into the next bar.

[M Ramsey]

Originally Posted by jimclark68

+1 on Mike's point about note duration, technique, type of bass/setup/strings, etc., that was a good point.

Neighbor Mike R, you out there? Mike Ramsey will have some good insights into this as well. Of course, with BG festival season well underway, many of our bluegrassers will be AWOL until after the weekend.

Jim clark nominates me to dive in, but I'm no authority.

I did have the pleasure of playing with Michael Cleveland and others a few years back at MerleFest on the stage during the Midnight Jam (which was a blast). Mark Schatz loaned me his bass for the 30 minute gig which was treat as well.

Bluegrass bass for me is a bit more bouncy than jazz. Sometimes I chastize myself for playing too many passing tones as well. I do NOT slap, I will not attempt a break, but that's MY personal take on BG bass.

Someone mentioned not sustaining notes and keeping notes "cut off" or "damped" and this helps to define where the mandolin chop should fall. Guitarists, mandolin players, banjo, fiddle, dobro are all over each other with timing, syncopating and emphasizing chord changes and that's why I try to keep things pretty simple, solid and straight forward.

Another monster bassman to listen to is Todd Phillips who played on the first 4 recordings of The Bluegrass Album Band CD/records put out by Rounder. He's a favorite of mine and Barry Bales.

Bales has been a friend for years and he still kills me with his reserve and inovation with timing on his many recordings with Alison Krauss.

I'll try to help and maybe I've hurt the cause with these comments. If I need to try and clarify anything, feel free to ask.

[Jake deVilliers]

"Here's another weird thing: I find things move forward better when you move from the root down to the five, not up."

I think the reason you like that better is because it forces you to close the notes earlier. You can get the same feel playing R - 5 up by lifting your fretting fingers to create a more staccato feel. I think McChildtree's got the idea.
I've been playing and singing bluegrass, mostly on guitar, for (Oh God!) more than 25 years now and I've heard a lot of players, but the very best bluegrass bass player ever is Gene Libbea who is no longer with 'The Nashville Bluegrass Band'.
Gene is a complete bass player, a musician who plays the low notes and keeps the groove percolating. He rarely plays the same turnaround twice, he uses the 'colour' notes to create harmonic movement without ever being a wanker, and he's a super guy.
Their album called 'Unleashed' is one of my all-time favorite records and worth listening to anytime at all. From the R5 unison sostenuto he plays on the old time fiddle tune 'Boll Weevil' to the slapped solo intro to 'I've Got a Date' to his Ernie Potts style playing on 'Doorstep of Trouble', its a complete Master Class in Bluegrass bass.
He never stands out, but when you lean in and listen, he is just amazing!