Defintions of a Jazz Musician

musicman5string · #1 09-07-2006, 07:24 PM

Hello-
I had an interesting conversation with someone tonight regarding something along the lines of "what is a jazz musician?". Basically what we were talking about were different styles of music, and what it meant to be called a "jazz" musician. We were saying things like:
-how do certain people clasify themselves as "jazz"?
-would there be any "universal" criteria to meet such a description?
-throughout the history of the music, each generation picks up what the last one did and creates something new (supposedly), so is it hardest now to be a jazz musician based on the amount of knowledge to be had?
-do older generations not consider younger ones "qualified jazz musicians" if you don't know "Flying Home"?
etc.
You see what we were getting at?
I think we both said that if you consider yourself a jazz musician, then you are...more or less. However:
-We both knew musicians that we've done gigs with who did NOT know any "standard repoirtoire" at all...and yet wrote their own tunes that were "jazzy"...
-some folks say that if you can't go out and do a "standards/straight ahead" gig then you don't know the music....but could some name "jazz" people today do those?
-what happens if you go on a gig, know a million "standards" i.e. songs from the great American songbook, but don't know "A Night In Tunisia"?
In the end, I couldn't some up with any one criteria that I felt rectified all situations; some jazz musicians know "Spain", some don't. Some know "Misty"; some don't.
I found it an interesting topic though (maybe it was a boring evening), but if anyone wants to chime in with opinions, this could be a good discussion.
*On a bass player note: we listened to Jeff Andrews tearing it up on a bootleg with Mike Stern playing "Alone Together" with a bass solo that was beyond ridiculous, then we listened to Ray Brown playing "Do Nothin Till You Hear From Me" from the Ellington CD; we were saying how neither could really take the place of the other in each given circumstance, and how Ray Brown, probably named greatest jazz bassist ever, could never have played a solo like Andrews. In converse, Andrews would never have fit in a duo with Ellington. (In our opinions).

Well, what do you all think?

Bruce Lindfield · #2 09-08-2006, 01:19 AM

What do you call a Jazz Musician, who splits up with his girlfriend?

Homeless!!!

Sam Sherry · #3 09-08-2006, 07:05 AM

A provocative question, as always, mm5. It's one of those questions that has both objective and subjective aspects. I'm on record with this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam's Ego

To me, jazz is:

a) Music which focuses on improvisation
b) within or reacting to the jazz tradition and
c) in the moment
d) that you think is jazz

Because if you think it's jazz, great, you win, argument done, it's jazz, let's go get a slice.

And yeah, all this stuff that looks like a bright line isn't . . . there's overdubs and old-fashioned razor-blade editing . . . I'm not blind to all of that . . . But even though the line is fuzzy, it's still there (wherever "there" may be for you). For me, by and large, if it's not in the moment, it's not jazz.

It always reminds me of Justice Stewart's comment that he didn't need a definition of 'pornography': "I know it when I see it."

Bruce Lindfield · #4 09-08-2006, 07:22 AM

Actually to be serious - this situation gets even worse or more complex, in Britain/Europe!!

So I guess you might define Jazz as an improvised tradition of music that has grown up in the US with roots in the Blues etc etc.

But there is a lot of improvised music in Europe that has had nothing to do with the American tradition and has grown out of Classical and 'Art' music in Europe ...are the people playing this : Jazz musicians...?

**Damon Rondeau** · #5 09-08-2006, 07:28 AM

No, not jazz musicians, just European musicians who are coming back to the age-old practice of improvisation. It's not like Jelly Roll invented improvisation -- it's been around forever.

Wasn't it almost 60 years ago Duke expressed the opinion the word "jazz" was becoming more and more useless, that the tent was getting bigger and bigger and bigger? And look at all that's gone down since then...

We need better words.

Bruce Lindfield · #6 09-08-2006, 08:30 AM

Well - there are uses for these labels ...

So if I go to a gig at a Jazz club, then I might expect to have some idea of what I'll hear - i.e. not Heavy Metal!!

Similarly if I'm browsing a big music store, then I would look in the Jazz section for my ECM records....even if I thought Eberhard Weber wasn't strictly playing Jazz at that point.....

musicman5string · #7 09-08-2006, 08:44 AM

Let's name some names:

Louis Armstrong: Jazz Musician.
Miles Davis: Jazz Musician.
Pat Metheny: Jazz Musician.
Ella Fitzgerald: Jazz Musician (Vocalist).

Frank Sinatra: well......he sang some standards from the jazz repertoire in front of a swingin' big band, but I wouldn't say he was a jazz musician, or even a jazz vocalist....he was a big band crooner that also did "pop" tunes and other things I would clasify as caberet.

Kenny G: he might be improvising, but he sure ain't playing "jazz" to me, even though his CD's are in the "Jazz" section at the record store. I would say he's more "instrumental light pop"....I would say a few other things, but let's keep it civil.

Chris Botti: well, apart from stealing the "Miles thing", he does have a nice tone, but his music is pretty close to Kenny G's, maybe a little more adventurous. Jazz? I dunno....

Michael Manring: you know who he is? EB player that does alot of new age stuff. He's in the jazz section too. Does he play jazz? Hmmm.....

Let's digress for a moment and refer to Rufus Reid's defintion of a jazz bassist, as per his instructional video:
-you have a great, swinging pulse
-your knowledge of the jazz repertoire is vast, including standards and jazz standards
-you play in tune
-you are aware of what is going on harmonically
etc.
It's a hard question, and I get asked it maybe 3-4 times a year, maybe by a student; "Victor Wooten plays jazz right?"
or someone at a gig...

I dunno, just thought it would make an interesting discussion, although it seems it's been discussed here before.

Ed Fuqua · #8 09-08-2006, 08:48 AM

......yawn....(scratch, scratch)......

musicman5string · #9 09-08-2006, 08:49 AM

Why Ed? Boring topic? Maybe it's been discussed to death? Or just not that important to talk about? Should we move on to "What strings are you using"?

Bruce Lindfield · #10 09-08-2006, 08:50 AM

How about Tomasz Stanko - is he a Jazz musician?

http://www.tomaszstanko.com/Tomasz_S..._Composer.html

Or how about Eberhard Weber - is he a Jazz musician when he plays with Jan Garbarek? But how about his playing on Kate Bush albums - is he not then a Jazz musician for that period of time....?

jazzbass72 · #11 09-08-2006, 08:59 AM

Hmm... that's a tough one. I personally try to play (and listen to) music that feels of some value to me, and that moves me. If it happens to fall under the "jazz" umbrella, so be it. Lately, I've been listening to Joy Division and early New Order more than anything else. Am I ashamed of it, as a "jazz" musician? No.

-Marco

P.S. Fellow NYer, Musicman5string, why don't you sign off your posts with a first (and last name)? Any reasons for your anonimity? That may have been discussed before, but I am just curious

you can respond offline if that's a sensitive topic. We're like a big family here, and it's nice to be able to address one another at least by name.

WillBuckingham · #12 09-08-2006, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

It's not like Jelly Roll invented improvisation

No. He invented jazz . . .

musicman5string · #13 09-08-2006, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzbass72

P.S. Fellow NYer, Musicman5string, why don't you sign off your posts with a first (and last name)? Any reasons for your anonimity? That may have been discussed before, but I am just curious

you can respond offline if that's a sensitive topic. We're like a big family here, and it's nice to be able to address one another at least by name.

Hey Marco-
Hopefully we'll be able to do the NY hang soon (like was being discussed a few months ago in the amps/pickups section) and we can all meet, and I can introduce myself to all y'all. Unfortunately I don't have a website or a myspace page.

P.S. You sound great on the clips I've heard.

Ed Fuqua · #14 09-08-2006, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by musicman5string

Or just not that important to talk about?

Do you really want me to starting pulling quotes to show how much of actual substance can be and has been discussed here? Do you really think that the closest thing to this thread (in terms of substance)that has been discussed in the past here is "What kind of strings do you use?"

And for the Dauphin, what hath Henry for he?

But that's just me, I've made all the entries in this I want to. You guys can keep playing.

musicman5string · #15 09-08-2006, 12:31 PM

Come on, nobody even fell off the merry go round yet.

jazzbass72 · #16 09-08-2006, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by musicman5string

Hey Marco-
Hopefully we'll be able to do the NY hang soon

Hope so too. A NYC hang IS happening on the BG side of the forum on 9/24...they said they've had one every year for three years in a row... too bad I will be out of town :-( Here's the thread about the 3rd Annual NYC Talkbass Get-Together:

3rd Annual NYC Talkbass Get-Together 9/24/06

Quote:

Originally Posted by musicman5string

Unfortunately I don't have a website or a myspace page.

That's totally cool you don't have either, but you can still tell us your name is... John? Vincent? Michael?

Quote:

Originally Posted by musicman5string

P.S. You sound great on the clips I've heard.

Thank you (<---------your name here),
I do appreciate the compliment.

-Marco

toman · #17 09-13-2006, 05:08 PM

I think jazz is whatever you want it to be. To me, it's a catch-all term that covers everything that is improvisational and doesn't quite identify with anything else.

And as far as the name thing goes, some of us just don't really want our names out there on the internet connected to everything we say. I don't think it's really a big deal; it may be difficult for the older folks to accept, but why isn't a handle just as good as a name?

Bruce Lindfield · #18 09-14-2006, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by musicman5string

Michael Manring: you know who he is? EB player that does alot of new age stuff. He's in the jazz section too. Does he play jazz? Hmmm......

Yes he does - in fact I have seen him play Jazz - at a London clinic performance he played a Jazz standard - played the head, then improvised on several choruses over the chord changes.

On one of the Bass Day videos, he plays Stanley Turrentine's "Sugar" - which has also become a standard which I have played many times with Jazz groups.

Is he a Jazz musician - thats' a big

...?

So for me it's like Eberhard Weber - he can play Jazz, but nowadays does it very rarely - his music is arranged and develops like Contemporary classical music.

I saw him play with Jan Garbarek's quartet , which might look like a "Jazz Quartet" - Sax,Piano,Bass and Drums - improvising etc.

But none of the music in any way referred to the Great American Songbook, the Blues or any of the traditions of Jazz - no ii-V7-Is - no trading 8s etc etc

In fact Garbarek pointed out how some of the tunes were based on European folk music and a lot of the material was clearly written in a style more like chamber music - but there was improvising and some of the tunes had strong African-influenced beats - but no conventional "swing" or "Latin numbers!!

TroyK · #19 09-14-2006, 09:19 AM

Jazz, by definition is anything recorded on the Blue Note Label between 1950 and 1967 with more than 2 and fewer than 7 musicians, each of whom played an instrument from the following approved list:

Drum Kit - Fewer than 5 pieces
Doublebass
Piano
Saxaphone (Alto, Tenor or Baritone)
Trumpet (Fleugalhorn or Coronet are acceptable if doubling)
Trombone (acceptable only in a sextet)

I hope that clears this up once and for all. I have no doubt that we'll all agree on this.

Troy

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #20 09-14-2006, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TroyK

Jazz, by definition is anything recorded on the Blue Note Label between 1950 and 1967 with more than 2 and fewer than 7 musicians, each of whom played an instrument from the following approved list:

Drum Kit - Fewer than 5 pieces
Doublebass
Piano
Saxaphone (Alto, Tenor or Baritone)
Trumpet (Fleugalhorn or Coronet are acceptable if doubling)
Trombone (acceptable only in a sextet)

I hope that clears this up once and for all. I have no doubt that we'll all agree on this.

Seconded. Now we can all get on with our lives and call our music whatever else we want.