Do you resent being called an amateur?

[Steve Boisen]

When I was in my early 20's, I earned my living as a full time musician, playing electric bass in "Top-40" bands (back in the 80's when there was such a thing). Now that I have a family and a serious day job, music has become a part time thing for me, although I usually play out several times per month. I still consider myself a professional musician because I am paid for my musical performances, but by some people's definition I am an "amateur" because music is not my chief source of income. This really bothers me, and I get bent out of shape when I hear "professional" and "amateur" defined this way.

I think I am a much better player than I was 15 years ago (plus now I play upright bass) and I certainly could earn a living in music if I had too, although I don't think I would enjoy the same standard of living as I do now. The full time musicians I know in my area don't have an easy time of it, and they can't pick and choose gigs based on artistic merit like I can. I'll usually turn a gig down if it does not sound like something I'd enjoy.

In think a "professional" musician is anyone who is compesnated for their playing and/or whose musicianship has reached a level where they can seek these types of engagements. Perhaps some people fit this description who are by most musical standards "amateurish", but I get rankled when I am catergorized as an amateur because I earn my living at a "day gig".

Or maybe I just worry too much about labels. Thoughts? Comments?

- Steve

[Mike Goodbar]

I prefer "semi-professional," especially when comparing myself to those guys who are making it playing full time. Though I sit at a desk all day designing product labels and catalogs (yes, that's as thrilling as it sounds), I still consider myself first and foremost a musician. As pathetic as it sounds, I pretty much live for those half-dozen or so gigs I play a month.

[TroyK]

Ah this conversation again. Beware, it gets nasty.

Your reasons for feeling good about your legitimacy as a musician seem solid to me, keep feeling that way and if you can, let go of the need to change the mind of whoever is being snotty to you about and the other people behind them. No matter how many pages this thread goes, it won't change things.

Conduct yourself as a professional. Put yourself into honing your craft. Respect people who you work with who don't have day jobs. And, if you have to label yourself, do it however you feel comfortable.

Troy

[brianrost]

You worry too much about labels.

Like you, I have a day job but goig with full timers and none of them put me down for only playing part time.

That's all the validation I need.

[Vandelay]

When they call you "amateur", just smile and remember the health plan, retirement plan, and paid vacation that your daytime job gives you. (Assuming that they give you those things, of course).

[Aaron Saunders]

IMO, there's less of a clear cut line between "amateur" and "professional." I'd consider your situation "semi-professional." Someone who can't play as well but still gigs on occasion would be an "amateur."

Also, while guys who can't play but still gig all the time might call themselves professional musicians, they generally have other names to people who know them/their playing -- hacks.

[mesmithnm]

Originally Posted by brianrost

You worry too much about labels.

Like you, I have a day job but gig with full timers and none of them put me down for only playing part time.

That's all the validation I need.

I'm like Brian - I have a day gig but play music with full-timers. The fact that they call me for paying gigs (and even call again after we've played together ) is all the validation I need.

Also, in any profession, one can be a part-timer. I know doctors, lawyers, and engineers that only work part-time, but they not only call themselves professional, they have the licenses to back it up! So part-time professional musician seems like an accurate description for people like us.

Mark

[toman]

This is kind of like trying to decide if you're an artist or not. I say, if you make music, you're a musican. If you make something that looks like art, you're an artist. I happen to be both, and sometimes I make money by doing both, so I figure that makes me a pro. If someone wants to think otherwise, well, that's their issue, I really don't care.

[Brent Nussey]

I always find it funny at how in America (including my home country Canada, and the US, where I lived for some time), there seems to be a higher status that comes with calling yourself a "professional" To me, an amateur is someone who does something for love. A professional is someone who does something for money. To use an analogy that may get me in trouble here, I'd much rather have sex with an amateur than a professional, even if the pro might be "better" To me, I hate the term "professional musician," and never refer to myself that way. In fact, I sometimes tell people I'm really just a fan who became a "professional" in order to spend more time with the music and around musicians.

I think one possible reason for this feeling in the US is judging people on the idea of whether they could "make it" or not as professional musicians. Time has taught me that that's dumb. I remember when I lived in NY, I used to play at a little place called "La Figaro" in the Village sometimes. One night, somebody made a mistake, and booked our duo on "poetry night." After some discussion, they agreed to give us the free dinner, and book us an extra night the next month. So we ate dinner and watched the poetry readings. That was when I realized the difference between musicians and poets. A poet has NO HOPE of "making a living" off being a poet. It's just not possible. So if you want to be a poet, you move to NY, or Paris, or whatever, and get a job in an office somewhere, and spend your non-working life on your passion. Maybe at some point you self-publish a book, or even have a book or a poem published somewhere. But the best you can hope for is to be remembered. These people are by definition amateurs, but to me, what they do is the highest, most beautiful thing: they do it because they need to, money or no money. I think the fact that some people are able to make a living as musicians kind of poisons our thinking, with this idea that if you're good enough, you should be able to make your living from your art. I don't think that's true. Read about Charles Ives.

FWIW, here in Japan, and I think generally in Asia, there's an idea of the "noble amatuer," an idea that the person who does something not for money, but just for the love of it, is better than a professional. Pro baseball is huge in Japan, but the biggest sports spectacle is the twice-annual High School Baseball Tournament, where teams from high schools around the country compete. The feats of mind-over-matter and sports heroism far exceed anything you'll see in pro ball. The people love it.

You may not be able to change the thinking of those around you, but you should be proud that you go out to the gig, even when you're tired from work, because it's what you want to do with your life, and not because it's what you have to do to pay the bills, whether you're a "pro" or an "amateur."

Whenever I get tired or worn down by playing for a living, I always think of and take inspiration from guys like yourself, some of whom I also play with, who show up because it's what they're called to do in life, whether they're paid to or not.

Thanks for being there,
Brent

[Uncletoad]

Nice. Well said.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

As usual, Brent nailed it. I consider myself both an amateur and a professional. While I'm proud to say that I make a portion of my income playing music and the rest teaching it, I'm much happier to add that I'd do most of the playing I do for the love of it whether I got paid or not - and parts of the teaching, too. Nothing kills the spirit of music faster than the shift of motivation for doing it from love to money...and I believe the same could be said of life in general.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I know more burned out "professional" musicians than I care to think about. The best players I know still care about putting all of the energy they have into the music they're playing in any particular moment. Burnouts don't bother doing this. The old "man, it's just a gig" adage is almost a guarantee of lame, lifeless playing...because to the people who spout it, it's not "playing" at all - it's "working". Give me an amateur who cares over a professional who doesn't every time.

The other term that I don't care for is "artist". It may be just me, but all too often it just seems to mean "pretentious artisan", especially when it's the artisan in question who insists on its usage. YMMV.

[Marc Piane]

Let people call you whatever they want. Play music because you enjoy it.

I agree wholeheartedly with Chris. You have to play for the love of music. I tell my students all the time that as soon as gigging becomes only about money...quit. Get a job pumping gas, mowing lawns, picking up trash in the park, it'll all pay better.

That said you have to respect yourself and your art (or whatever you want to call it) to ask for the cash you deserve but if you take a gig give 100%. I've know a bunch of day job folk that undervalue themselves as musicians because the income is 'extra' for them. This makes it harder for those of us trying to feed our families.

I used to play with a drummer that was an economist by day and he would play for whatever the gig paid. Even for free. He always used to say "Well, from an economical standpoint music has no inherent value".
Used to drive me crazy!

[TroyK]

Originally Posted by Brent Nussey

To use an analogy that may get me in trouble here, I'd much rather have sex with an amateur than a professional, even if the pro might be "better"

Thanks for being there,
Brent

As a professional prostitute, that statement offends me. I can love what I do and still get paid for it.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by TroyK

As a professional prostitute, that statement offends me. I can love what I do and still get paid for it.

And, on the other hand, if yer gonna get screwed anyway, you might as well get paid for it.

Siriusly, Brent, that's the kind of analogy that sounds great, but actually is in no way analogous to reality. I don't love jazz any more or less than Peter Washington, the thing that puts Peter in the position he inhabits is his ability to consistently deliver a very deep and beautiful musical statement. You talk about your epiphany with poets; well there ARE poets who support themselves through their writing, speaking and teaching their art. And the difference between them and the slammers you meet at the coffee shop is just as deep as the one between me and PW.

Your "reverse discrimination" is just as jive as the posited discrimination. Don't think "pro" or "am"; think SERIOUS or NOT SERIOUS. There are beginners who haven't made a dime who are more serious than I am right now, and I'm pretty serious. INTENT has nothing to do with present ability (has a LOT to do with future ability).
Likewise I don't care if somebody thinks of themselevs as a pro or an amateur, all I care about is can they cut the gig? Do they communicate with any kind of intent and meaning?

If we're doing that in the drummer's living room, fine. If we're doing that in a public venue, fine. If the public venue is making some money cause we're playing there, some of that money belongs to me.

Stupid **** people say just so they can hear their gums flap just doesn't matter.

[Uncletoad]

Equally Nice.

[Eric Grossman]

It's a nagging concept, that as artists, is tough to definitively define. I think it all has to do with conduct.

I'm lucky enough to make a living as a bass player. I probably earn less than many of the people that buy our cd's or see our shows, though. I do fine, though, and I'm happy, so I do it. It's my true passion, and I would and have done it for nothing.

I have a family, and if my wife didn't make a good living and provide benefits for us and our kids, I might not be able to do what I do. That wouldn't change my qualifications, though. I'm still serious, studied, good (I hope), etc...

So, I am currently a pro, but if I lost my gig, and had to rely on local gigs, would I all of a sudden become an amateur? I don't think so. I'm still the same player, and still improving.

I don't think that you have to make your main income as a musician, to be considered a pro. Art is different in that way. Many artists that are considered professionals, do other things, to support themselves. Many of the most respected and imitated artists in history (not just musicians), made the bulk of their income outside of their craft. They are still great and definitely pros.

It's really just a label, if you look at it.

[richardn517]

To me being a professional or an amateur, does have to do with playing ability, but also your frame of mind. Now i get payed to play gigs 3-4 times a month and ive been playing just under a year, I consider myself an amateur but I conduct myself and play with a Profesional attitude.

[Marc Piane]

As I said before... labels are worthless. If you ascribe to them here you go.

From Webster's dictionary.

Professional - a: participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer> b : having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier> c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>

Amateur - one who engages in a pursuit, study, science, or sport as a pastime rather than as a profession.

[rprowse]

I used to live in Tauranga. There was this guy who played pretty well who, when someone approached the band, would always present a card with his name and the words 'professional musician'. Now, except for the guys in the symphony in Wellington, a few big names and those unfortunate enough to be out of 'day job' work, every musician in NZ is probably a part timer. There's just not the playing work to make it possible to make a living. Anyway, this guy always presents this bloody card when someone approaches the band on a gig. "John Doe Professional Musician". Now, since there are a few little matters requiring attention in John's playing (like dropping bars during the bass solo), another guy on these gigs decides that it might be cooler to be an amateur musician. So, lo and behold, just like how the best karate fighter goes back to wearing a white belt after he has passed through all the levels of black, it becomes cool in this little NZ city among a small group of musicians to proudly proclaim, "I'm an amateur musician."
The power of a label only comes from who you would rather be associated with.

[Jake deVilliers]

That reminds of the card that Charles Sawtelle, brilliant guitar player with the bluegrass band "Hot Rize" used to carry when he was alive and playing.


It read; Charles Sawtelle

Expert



Thanks for triggering the memory, he was a good man.