Drummer Problems.

Eli_Upright12 · #1 10-10-2008, 10:35 PM

So I am part of a five piece combo with an outstanding piano player and guitar player, we also have a trumpet player who is talented and has potential. The piano player and I have been playing together for something like six years, which when your seventeen is along time and we have always tried to make bipartisan decisions in our musical partnership. So at the start of this year we became the band leaders of this combo as the most experienced returing members. Without consulting us or letting us hear him play our trumpet player decided to add his friend as drummer, this would have been ok if the kid could play. But of course the guy can barely swing, loses time and makes no effort to improve(the guys into hip hop, not jazz). When we talked about the possibility of other drummers, said trumpet player would tell lies about their abilities and even to this day even after seeing some of these drummers denies that they have talent. So long story short we have decided to kick the old drummer out and bring in a new one who is excited about jazz, and working hard to improve on his already capable skills. Of course now our Trumpet player has thrown a hissy fit and threatens to leave if we kick out the drummer (his eight-year-old-like emotions got the best of him). The kicker here is that he is the only jazz horn player of any kind in the school and kicking him out would mean a drum, bass, guitar, piano quartet, I would love to do this but its hard to get gigs that way and people don't respond to it the same way.

Is there a responsible, coolheaded, mature and diplomatic way to solve this problem? or is all lost and we should go with the drummer and find a new horn player or make do with out?

Jonny B · #2 10-10-2008, 10:44 PM

If worse comes to worse, go with the new drummer and lose the horn player. It's pretty tough to play when your drummer is all over the place.

Also, there have got to be some more able horn players down in Mad Town.

Eli_Upright12 · #3 10-10-2008, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonny B

If worse comes to worse, go with the new drummer and lose the horn player. It's pretty tough to play when your drummer is all over the place.

Also, there have got to be some more able horn players down in Mad Town.

There are some great players, but its hard to organize with them, because a) they go to the cross town high schools b) they go to the high schools on this side of town, but are unmotivated c) they are not high schoolers and don't really want to play with us youngens.

Jonny B · #4 10-10-2008, 10:52 PM

Well, I guess you have to decide which is more important to you then; an able drummer, or a horn player.

Tough decision.

Eli_Upright12 · #5 10-10-2008, 10:54 PM

I so badly want to say drummer, but the horn players good and I like the kid when he can act like an adult. I guess we could do some Wes Montgomery style stuff with the guitar as a lead instrument.

**Stumbo** · #6 10-10-2008, 10:59 PM

Why is the horn player protecting the drummer, knowing he's not that good?

I would ask him to explain his actions. Then do what you gotta do for the good of the band. If the horn player leaves, oh well. If he stays, it won't be any better. He'll be finding every frickin' tiny fault in any drummer you get and try to rub your noses in it. So I'd say he's gone, either way. Or you can tell him your disbanding and forming another band w/o a horn player and the old drummer. Let him stay with the drummer.

Going back to the time when the horn player asked the drummer to join w/o consulting you, you guys didn't have to consent. Read my sig.

Yeah, get the guitarist to do the melodies/lead. You can also get the keyboard player an electronic keyboard and have him play any instrument tone you like.

Eli_Upright12 · #7 10-10-2008, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stumbo

Why is the horn player protecting the drummer, knowing he's not that good?
I would ask him to explain his actions. Then do what you gotta do for the good of the band. If the horn players leaves, oh well. If he stays, it won't be any better. He'll be finding every frickin' tiny fault in any drummer you get and try to rub your noses in it. So I'd say he's gone, either way.

Going back to the time when the horn player asked the drummer to join w/o consulting you, you guys didn't have to consent. Read my sig.

Yeah, get the guitarist to do the melodies/lead. You can also get the keyboard player an electronic keyboard and have him play any instrument tone you like.

Yeah we could have said no, but in the trumpet players mind it was always a done deal, so this same dispute wouldve happened back then. We also didnt know that other drummers were coming out of the woodworks either.

jallenbass · #8 10-10-2008, 11:06 PM

I play without a horn player all the time. Gigs are plentiful. Actually I play without a drummer most of the time too. It's nice.

**Stumbo** · #9 10-10-2008, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eli_Upright12

Yeah we could have said no, but in the trumpet players mind it was always a done deal, so this same dispute wouldve happened back then.

And how did he come to the conclusion that he could bring in anyone he wanted?

I suggest taking a look at If only I knew then what I know now... and coming up with an operating document that your band can live by to help prevent you from wasting your time in the future. There's a few hundred years of experience written up in that thread that will help you overcome many band problems.

hdiddy · #10 10-11-2008, 03:14 AM

Ditch the horn player. Heck ditch the drummer!! I love playing drummerless.

Eli_Upright12 · #11 10-11-2008, 07:10 AM

We did the drummer-less thing last year and worked ok, but as high schoolers, even as fairly experienced musicians the help of a drummer is nice. It would be nice to be able to do more extravagant arrangements and such if it was just a quartet, maybe do some classic trio rep in the styles of Bill Evans, Oscar Peterson, Bud Powell and the stuff Wynton Kelly did.

Uncletoad · #12 10-11-2008, 07:54 AM

Guitar/Bass/Piano trio is really fun. No drummer to clog up the groove, no horn players to draw down money standing there doing nothing while you pump through the changes all night.

Dump em all.

Think Oscar Peterson, Ray Brown and Herb Ellis.

christ andronis · #13 10-11-2008, 08:50 AM

It's a no brainer. If this drummer is holding back the group, ya gotta make a change. It's about the collective "music" you're making not one guy. You'll find another trumpet player if the rest of the group is happening. It's a tough choice but you have to remember that no one is bigger than the music.

clink · #14 10-11-2008, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

Guitar/Bass/Piano trio is really fun. No drummer to clog up the groove.......

Yep. I'm doing one today at 5:00

The worst gigs I've played have been with drummers with no time.
Lead, follow, or get the *^&& out of the way.

Dump the drummer and anybody else that fights you on that issue.

fingers · #15 10-11-2008, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by christ andronis

It's a tough choice but you have to remember that no one is bigger than the music.

True dat. Check out PW thread on Ego vs Music.

Now let's remember that Eli is 17. That is not at all a put down. I wish I was as into jazz at 17. My guess though is that everyone is fairly new to music relatively speaking. Even at 34 I always look inward before I start looking at other people. Is there something I could do to make things better? Is there something I need to improve upon?

I agree with Toad about dumping bums/more money etc. But we are talking about highschool kids learning to play jazz.

Eli. I'm not at all trying to belittle your situation. At all. Just take the advice of guys that are much older and interpret it for your situation. You may already have in which case ignore me.

Eli_Upright12 · #16 10-11-2008, 02:49 PM

Just to clarify we have a new drummer lined up who is talented and motivated, so the situation if nothing can be done is weighing groove versus melody, I as a bass player say groove, but the piano player as much as he would also like to ditch the drummer likes doing cool stuff with melody lines and opening up the arrangements. If it were solely up to me I would be fine with a quartet.

Marc, we are all fairly experienced and the main core have been part of this group for almost three years now, in past years we have played the role of educators(that is helping people learn to play jazz) and this year we wanted to have a combo that could come into its own as a progressing talented group. There is no rule that says other people can't start their own combos, its just always been people jumping on for the ride on our coat tails. Actually that sounds overly arrogant, what I'm trying to say is that we (the piano player and I) have always been the band leaders, transposers, composers, organizers and publicists for the group. For once we wanted to have a group where everyone was ready to play music and make progress, a group that could become cohesive.

fingers · #17 10-11-2008, 03:00 PM

Rest assured I'm not trying to talk down to you. Rather I'm just referring to some of the suggestions you are getting and I don't think really apply to your situation.

You are obviously a very committed young guy. Just never lose sight of the fact that we ALL have stuff to learn. If this drummer is holding back your ability to improve though there is really no choice. You should get this other drummer and concentrate on getting a good sound with a (fairly traditional) group.

Drummerless stuff is great fun. I just did a gig last night with piano and guitar and had a great time. It is a different thing though. Harder in many respects until you get good at it.

For the record I am still learning to play jazz and I've been doing it for almost 20 years. There is so much to learn it is daunting sometimes.

Eli_Upright12 · #18 10-11-2008, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fingers

Rest assured I'm not trying to talk down to you. Rather I'm just referring to some of the suggestions you are getting and I don't think really apply to your situation.

You are obviously a very committed young guy. Just never lose sight of the fact that we ALL have stuff to learn. If this drummer is holding back your ability to improve though there is really no choice. You should get this other drummer and concentrate on getting a good sound with a (fairly traditional) group.

Drummerless stuff is great fun. I just did a gig last night with piano and guitar and had a great time. It is a different thing though. Harder in many respects until you get good at it.

For the record I am still learning to play jazz and I've been doing it for almost 20 years. There is so much to learn it is daunting sometimes.

How did you approach that trio? did you have to take on more rhythmic duties and the guitar take on more melodic?

fingers · #19 10-11-2008, 06:55 PM

As I've said in other threads, time is everyone's responsibility. The cool thing is that if everyone is hip and listening you can do lots of fun stuff with time and feel. That said, if time gets funny, the bass is the one that can bring it back. It also depends on the group and the dynamics therein. The guys last night were guys I've never played with before and I did take a more rhythmic role initially. After we got to know eachother a bit we were able to stretch.

Eli_Upright12 · #20 10-11-2008, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fingers

As I've said in other threads, time is everyone's responsibility. The cool thing is that if everyone is hip and listening you can do lots of fun stuff with time and feel. That said, if time gets funny, the bass is the one that can bring it back. It also depends on the group and the dynamics therein. The guys last night were guys I've never played with before and I did take a more rhythmic role initially. After we got to know each other a bit we were able to stretch.

I completely understand what you talking about everyone keeping time, but generally we can have the biggest effect on it. We get to play most (if not all) of the time and we get to use the most basic musical unit a lot of the time. WHat kind of tunes were you guys playing?