Drummer Trouble:HELP!

[adbass]

Hi Everyone,

I've been debating leaving a group that I play in for some time for several reasons, but mostly because of the drummer.

He constantly play over all of us, playing less as an accompanist and more as a constant soloist. He keeps pushing a specific modern style of playing instead of letting the music grow and develop on it's own. I'm fine adapting to different styles, but the most frustrating thing is that he turns the time around and drops beats often and seemingly at the expense of trying to achieve this certain style. I'll play quarter notes and only quarters to try to ground us and provide some clarity and collective "glue" and he complains that playing only quarters is boring and flat.

The other frustration I have is that it seems to be a one-way street with him; all take, no give. If I go with him, he's happy, but I'm not. I end up having no fun.

I'm really at a loss and out of ideas. I'm tired and ready to leave the group.

Have you guys ever experienced difficulty with a drummer and what have you done to remedy the situation?

THANK YOU

[Paul Warburton]

I just can't imagine having difficulties with a drummer.
(As you can see in the picture above).

[two fingers]

Nothing is more frustrating to me than an immature musician. someone who has the chops, but no maturity, is a real bummer. Of course, we see it with guitarists all the time. The only thing I can tell you from my expeirence is that they DO NOT change. You may be dealing with the only guy who will, but I doubt it. All you can do is this. First, threatn to leave if things don't come together. If you get his attention with that, work on communication with him. Explain to him WHY noone wants to hear the drummer wanking about all night. Explain to him why you think your songs could be SOOOOO much better if they sounded like.....well.....songs. If that doesn't work, peel out and don't look back. He'll spend the next few weeks telling everybody how you "couldn't hack it". It will probably get back to you via a mutual friend. The best part is he'll be back to playing in his bedroom in no time. Best of luck!

[adbass]

Originally Posted by two fingers

Nothing is more frustrating to me than an immature musician. someone who has the chops, but no maturity, is a real bummer. Of course, we see it with guitarists all the time. The only thing I can tell you from my expeirence is that they DO NOT change. You may be dealing with the only guy who will, but I doubt it. All you can do is this. First, threatn to leave if things don't come together. If you get his attention with that, work on communication with him. Explain to him WHY noone wants to hear the drummer wanking about all night. Explain to him why you think your songs could be SOOOOO much better if they sounded like.....well.....songs. If that doesn't work, peel out and don't look back. He'll spend the next few weeks telling everybody how you "couldn't hack it". It will probably get back to you via a mutual friend. The best part is he'll be back to playing in his bedroom in no time. Best of luck!

Well, you nailed the maturity thing and while we've worked on communication, I am fearing now that he won't change, just as you've said. I've been very nice to him, and basically told him I needed a break for a few months. It's a tough situation, because I appreciate that he's trying to something different, but it's often at the expense of making music.

There are so many other drummers that I play with that make the rhythm happen, are fun to play with, and actually get called upon to play, so I wouldn't be out of work or anything.

thanks

[TroyK]

yep, very common problem. I guess the one thing I would ask is about the rest of the band. Are they happy with him and do they want to go towards "the modern thing" too or are they more grounded. If you're in a position to talk with them about it privately before you quit, then you might want to do so.

I've NEVER regretted quitting a band when I felt as you do, but I have regretted not doing it sooner. If you need to leave, try to make it smooth. It's a small community and you'll want those other guys to think of later when they need someone.

Sorry, brother, it happens. I posted a similar thread a few months back. Left a quintet and immediately the two non-offending players reached out to me about other projects.

[fingers]

So the question is Why stay? Is the music rewarding? Is the paycheck good? Feeling bad after every time you play with that group isn't good for you, your playing, or the joy you can bring to music.

I was a similar situation with a weekly gig with Hulk Smash! on drums. He was awful. Not swinging AT ALL, loud as all get out, and a HUGE ego to boot. I put up with it for a little while 'cause it was a weekly gig on a Tuesday night that paid $100 cash + dinner and drinks. I swore every week after the gig that I wasn't going to do it again. He'd call and I'd say sure though. I finally had to start 'being booked' whenever he called... for my own sanity.

[adbass]

Right. Why Stay? a good question . . .

is the money good? not really

is the music rewarding? sometimes. it's a piano trio, and the pianist is killin'.

the group has potential, but I don't know if I'm willing to stick around and put up with all the BS to wait for the payoff. Plus, I'm def on a friendly basis with these guys.

Also, the issue with the drummer is a real problem, one that's gotten me emotionally charged in the past. One reason that I stick around is to find some resolution. The resolution may just be me leaving.

[TroyK]

Originally Posted by adbass

The resolution may just be me leaving.

Right it may be and I don't advocate staying in bad situations. But, have you or can you talk to the piano player? Any idea how he feels? This is tricky and I just went through it. I was torn up about walking because some of the guys, specifically in my case the piano player, was a guy who I wanted to do a lot of playing with, just not under the existing circumstances.

I talked to him and said that I really dug his playing and felt that we listened and created well together and I wanted to have a long playing relationship with him, but the group was working for me. I didn't blast the guy who needed blasting, but I didn't have to, he understood. I just told him it wasn't working for me, I didn't think the music was happening and that I usually left our sessions upset and aggravated rather than stoked. My guess is that he's going to walk from that group too, but he wanted to give it more time. The main thing, though is that if the things that bothered me start to become the same type of problem for him, he won't associate them with me and he may just associate me with the solution.

In your case, if you don't know how the piano player feels, it's worth finding out. It could be that he would rather replace the drummer than you. I wouldn't put it to him like that, but tell him how much you like his playing and how much you want to play with him, but that you don't feel like you're able to lock in with that particular drummer and the enjoyment is gone from that group for you, so you're thinking about stepping aside. See what he says. There are only only a couple of things that might end up being the case

1) he agrees with you
2) he disagrees and likes all the banging, which might mean that you guys aren't as musically compatible as you think
3) he hasn't thought about it yet, but if he ends up at 1) later, he'll remember your insight and professional handling of it and think of you for his new improved project.

That's my take. Don't stick around if it's bad for you. What we do is too hard on our bodies to thrash through in some unhealthy, unmusical situation. Get another gig or stay home and practice that night, or go to a baseball game, kiss a girl, pet a kitten something that is good for your soul and will ultimately help you make better music rather than dreading taking your bass out of it's case.

Just my $ .02

[adbass]

Originally Posted by TroyK

Right it may be and I don't advocate staying in bad situations. But, have you or can you talk to the piano player? Any idea how he feels? This is tricky and I just went through it. I was torn up about walking because some of the guys, specifically in my case the piano player, was a guy who I wanted to do a lot of playing with, just not under the existing circumstances.

I talked to him and said that I really dug his playing and felt that we listened and created well together and I wanted to have a long playing relationship with him, but the group was working for me. I didn't blast the guy who needed blasting, but I didn't have to, he understood. I just told him it wasn't working for me, I didn't think the music was happening and that I usually left our sessions upset and aggravated rather than stoked. My guess is that he's going to walk from that group too, but he wanted to give it more time. The main thing, though is that if the things that bothered me start to become the same type of problem for him, he won't associate them with me and he may just associate me with the solution.

In your case, if you don't know how the piano player feels, it's worth finding out. It could be that he would rather replace the drummer than you. I wouldn't put it to him like that, but tell him how much you like his playing and how much you want to play with him, but that you don't feel like you're able to lock in with that particular drummer and the enjoyment is gone from that group for you, so you're thinking about stepping aside. See what he says. There are only only a couple of things that might end up being the case

1) he agrees with you
2) he disagrees and likes all the banging, which might mean that you guys aren't as musically compatible as you think
3) he hasn't thought about it yet, but if he ends up at 1) later, he'll remember your insight and professional handling of it and think of you for his new improved project.

thanks troika. thanks good advice

Originally Posted by TroyK

That's my take. Don't stick around if it's bad for you. What we do is too hard on our bodies to thrash through in some unhealthy, unmusical situation. Get another gig or stay home and practice that night, or go to a baseball game, kiss a girl, pet a kitten something that is good for your soul and will ultimately help you make better music rather than dreading taking your bass out of it's case.

Just my $ .02

YES! Practice instead YES! take a girl on a date YES!

you're reading my mind here. There are a handful of times where I've turned down a date with a chic to gig with the group, only to have regretted it. Life is too short man.

. . . and it's come to the point where I'd MUCH rather stay home and practice instead of going out to play a musically non-rewarding, soul-sucking gig. It's def time to turn down those gigs, look for the better opportunities and KEEP PRACTICING

[adbass]

you guys have all given good advice. thanks.

Paul, i can't make out that picture. How about a dirty joke or something?

[adbass]

UPDATE:

Somehow this all worked out. We sat around and talked for a couple hours about our common musical goals and what was bothering us about the other players. We heard each other out, rehearsed like crazy and played a great gig a couple weeks ago selling out a 200 person listening room in our hood. It was very cool. You could hear a pin drop during my solos and it was the first time I felt really comfortable soloing with those guys.

Go figure. They're still a pain in my ass from time to time, but the music keeps pulling me in . . . .

[TroyK]

Hey, we're all pains in the ass at times, but you did the right thing working through it with them and I'm glad it worked out. Good skills to have as a musician, it will come up again.

[winston]

I'm glad you got this worked out.
I had a similar experience with a jazz piano trio gig I played at a hotel--it was a year contract, every Friday & Saturday night.

The drummer was a young kid with chops but no evident taste. He would seriously start playing a surf-rock or hip hop beat in the middle of a ballad, at fff volume, because he didn't like the pianist. The pianist would frequently lose his place in a tune, cluelessly skipping several bars ahead; he'd play Cuban montunos over Brazilian sambas, and could barely sightread or transpose. But he was the bandleader who landed the gig.

The drummer took advantage of the pianist's knack for getting lost in the form by doing big snare hits/setups in the middle of a tune while glaring at him. This usually caused the pianist to re-start the form (even if he hadn't been lost). Truly a miserable experience.

I'm not saying I'm perfect or virtuosic but:
1) I know how to play tastefully/appropriately for a style/venue and accurately spell the form
2) I am able to hear my mistakes at least as well as other musicians can, and learn from them
3) I listen and want the music to sound good, even if it's a tune I've played 100s of times

On the occasions when a sub drummer or pianist/guitarist played the group sounded/felt much better. When they both subbed out there were some really good nights.

The experience made me realize that getting only one part of the Gig Triangle (Hang Factor--$$$--Good Music) isn't enough for me. The money was OK but it was rough playing with guys who didn't want to listen to themselves in order to make good music. Fortunately I often had a house band gig at a bar after the hotel gig, where I played with some of the best cats in town, to "cleanse my palate" as it were.

The hotel gig went south because the drummer decided to stop showing up and booking subs after management told him to turn down the volume. It had a bit of impact on my finances but I was relieved (and I got inspired to write a song about the situation):

Everything But the Music
Grand piano, cheap tuxedos
drunken patrons' big libidos
traps and doghouse make the trio
We've got everything but the music

Play for money, not for pleasure
Wait, I think you skipped a measure
No one's listening, does it matter?
We've got everything but the music

The drummer's a robot who's easily bored
He shares a tin ear with the tourists and whores
He's an unruly android without any soul,
Or respect for tradition, or a volume control...

This sh*** hurts just like amateur dentistry
We ain't got no musical chemistry

(can be heard at http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...&content=music )

[adbass]

guys -- thanks for all your input and support.

we seemed to have worked through our difficulties, but it didn't last. After a particularly unmusical gig a few nights ago we decided to go our on ways.

It's kind of sad, we'd been together 3 years; like when you're dating someone and you're not really into it, but you let it drag on for a while longer than it should.

Anyway, I've got some free time now and that's going to be very enjoyable. There are a ton of other projects I can join, but fortunately, this wasn't my only group. I think splitting was ultimately in everyones best interest. So it goes . . .

[TroyK]

So it goes. You did the right thing by being straight with them and giving it a try. When it's over it's over and you move on. I'm sure you're the better man and musician for the experience.

[Don Higdon]

I've played alot of years. Some observations.
A player who's an a$$hole at age 21 will still be an a$$hole when he's 65. Don't expect someone's intolerable behavior to change.
Yes, honoring a commitment is the professional way, usually. However, if the reality is some factor which was unforeseeable or, worse, hidden, your obligation gets shortened. Give notice.
Your highest oligation is to yourself. Do you think that jerk drummer cares about you? All the time you're "doing the right thing", you're bringing all that stress home and laying it on other innocent people.
One dickhead flaws the entire group. Do you think sensitive musicians are going to come and listen? So what happens is, if you keep working with dumbbells, you'll end up only getting calls from other dumbbells.
There have been times in my life when I worked some awful gigs because of financial need. However, at age 73, I realize I was never as bad off as it seemed at the time.
You've paid some dues here. We honor you for that.
Now it's time to take care of adbass.

[adbass]

Thanks Don and TroyK. I needed to hear that.