Electric Bass in Jazz???

fmoore200 · #1 03-31-2011, 01:26 PM

I play both electric and upright bass, and enjoy both, but I do have a question regarding their respective uses.

The upright bass was used in all popular music it seems until fender released the electric bass, which quickly replaced the upright in rock and pop music.

Not that I want the upright to be replaced in jazz music, but my question is why has the jazz community been so reluctant to accept the electric bass? There are many capable electric bass players as well as those who play both electric and upright exceptionally well (McBride and Pattittuci come to mind).

Is it a community thing? If you grow up listening to pop music, you get an electric and stay the course, or you listen to jazz and play upright? Or is it more complex?

bommer · #2 03-31-2011, 01:29 PM

isnt there a lot of jazz with electric bass?
could be wrong, but almost positive ive heard a lot of electric jazz

fmoore200 · #3 03-31-2011, 01:32 PM

I'm not saying there isn't any, just that generally you don't see an electric player in a 'traditional' jazz group...the presence of en eb is usually an indication of a 'fusion' band..

Shakin-Slim · #4 03-31-2011, 01:36 PM

Sure there is a lot of jazz on electric bass. My favourite is Mark Egan. Thing is, it's not accepted by traditionalists for the authentic quality and most importantly THE SOUND. It's an acoustic instrument. They're very different. If you're gonna play in an more straight ahead band you'll need to do so to get gigs in many cases and places. If you're in a fusion band or, god forbid, a smooth jazz band, an electric is more accepted.

I definitely love the upright bass and I definitely understand why it doesn't sound right in some contexts, but the discrimination I hear at the sight of one is rather childish: "my instrument is bigger an older than yours". Hell, might as well get Scofield and McLaughlin off the stage cause those things ain't acoustic! What about electric keyboards? Sometimes I feel like it's a fear of redundancy thing. Perhaps not. Surely we'll find out in the next few posts.

Shakin-Slim · #5 03-31-2011, 01:37 PM

I should also add that I think electric bass in straight ahead settings can be fine if done well, it's just often better to see and hear an upright. I don't find it necessary to discriminate though

lunarpollen · #6 03-31-2011, 01:43 PM

I think it's the tone that really matters most... While it is possible to get a good approximation of a thumpy swing bass tone with an electric bass guitar (flatwound or tapewound strings, use of only neck pickup, appropriate volume and EQ settings on amp, muting of strings, etc.) most players just don't make the effort to.

Marc Piane · #7 03-31-2011, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunarpollen

I think it's the tone that really matters most... While it is possible to get a good approximation of a thumpy swing bass tone with an electric bass guitar (flatwound or tapewound strings, use of only neck pickup, appropriate volume and EQ settings on amp, muting of strings, etc.) most players just don't make the effort to.

Y'all kill me with this stuff. This same assertion pops up from time to time. It's just not true. I play both and would never bring chop only to a straight ahead jazz hit. It'd be like bringing eb to a classical job. Sure you can play the right notes but it's just the wrong tool. I've stolen killer chop players jobs because I had the right bass. Call me a snob or a purist but that is how I and 95% of the leaders I work for feel.

Shakin-Slim · #8 03-31-2011, 05:41 PM

I agree with what you're saying fingers, makes a lotta sense, and you're not being a snob. Relegating the eb to a "toy bass" is snobbery.

**Francois Blais** · #9 03-31-2011, 06:57 PM

Steve Swallow is a fantastic eb player that was first known as a db player.
Once he touched an eb, he fell for it and never turned back.

In my mind, music comes first.
The tool is secondary, and just a mean to get the music into the physical world.
Well, at least that's my opinion.

Gab124 · #10 03-31-2011, 07:18 PM

Its not just Jazz, i was booted out of a bluegrass band once because I didn't have a standup.

jdombrow · #11 03-31-2011, 09:55 PM

Few people complain about Anthony Jackson or Jimmy Haslip.

Eric Hochberg · #12 03-31-2011, 09:55 PM

Since Monk Montgomery, there have been many bass guitarists playing jazz. It has its own sound, some like it for certain styles, others don't. It doesn't necessarily fit into a "traditional" jazz band, as it's not the sound of the original. Makes sense, if you want that sound in a band. The good players have proven it has a place in creative music.

Marc Piane · #13 03-31-2011, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fingers

Y'all kill me with this stuff. This same assertion pops up from time to time. It's just not true. I play both and would never bring chop only to a straight ahead jazz hit. It'd be like bringing eb to a classical job. Sure you can play the right notes but it's just the wrong tool. I've stolen killer chop players jobs because I had the right bass. Call me a snob or a purist but that is how I and 95% of the leaders I work for feel.

Note the bold words.

Certainly it is a matter of taste but my post come in response to someone saying once again you could get a DB-like tone on EB. One is not a substitute for the other. Either way.

fmoore200 · #14 04-01-2011, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdombrow

Few people complain about Anthony Jackson or Jimmy Haslip.

+1000

Anthony Jackson is awesome. I love his facial expressions Haha

Marc Piane · #15 04-01-2011, 07:51 AM

So here was the question posed:

Quote:

Originally Posted by fmoore200

Is it a community thing? If you grow up listening to pop music, you get an electric and stay the course, or you listen to jazz and play upright? Or is it more complex?

here was my answer:

Quote:

Originally Posted by fingers

Call me a snob or a purist but that is how I and 95% of the leaders I work for feel.

Simple economics. If you want to work playing straight ahead jazz in a large market like Chicago you best play DB. Simple as that. There are a few exceptions around town but they are just that... exceptions.

Granted it was dripping with opinion but I stick by the assertion that if you want the DB sound play DB and vice versa. None of the guys mentioned have a DB-like tone. That I respect.

SteveC · #16 04-01-2011, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakin-Slim

...it's just often better to see...an upright.

This is a big part of it I think. You can get other basses that will do the tone pretty well and you'd think it was an upright if you couldn't see it - especially in a live mix. As with many things, people listen with their eyes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunarpollen

I think it's the tone that really matters most... While it is possible to get a good approximation of a thumpy swing bass tone with an electric bass guitar (flatwound or tapewound strings, use of only neck pickup, appropriate volume and EQ settings on amp, muting of strings, etc.) most players just don't make the effort to.

I think (mostly) this is true. You can get "in the neighborhood" with many different basses. The real snobs and purists will always disagree though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fingers

I play both and would never bring chop only to a straight ahead jazz hit. I've stolen killer chop players jobs because I had the right bass. Call me a snob or a purist but that is how I and 95% of the leaders I work for feel.

I won't call you a snob or a purist, but you do work in a market where it probably matters more. Leaders in Chicago, New York, etc. are probably more particular, and they can be. Where I play, and I would guess many others on TB, it isn't quite as important. I have an EUB (I know,not the same either) and it is nice to hear traditional jazz on a long scale, physically played instrument. And it does sound different. I'm just saying out her in the rural areas, I've played many jazz gigs with a fretted bass and no one has really cared. I'm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdombrow

Few people complain about Anthony Jackson or Jimmy Haslip.

They also don't play a lot of "traditional" jazz. I've met Jimmy a few times and he's a heck of a guy as well as a heck of a player.

Marc Piane · #17 04-01-2011, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveC

I won't call you a snob or a purist, but you do work in a market where it probably matters more. Leaders in Chicago, New York, etc. are probably more particular, and they can be.

Ha. We most have been posting at the same time.

Tampabass · #18 04-01-2011, 08:36 AM

I'm a doubler, and for straightahead jazz gigs I play the upright almost exclusively. For me, it's all about the tone. For viewers, maybe, it's about the tone and the look.

Guys like Steve Swallow, Bob Cranshaw and Jeff Berlin (his non-fusion stuff) nevertheless have had tremendous success playing electric in straightahead settings.

For some of those other famous doublers, like John Patitucci and Stanley Clarke, whenever they play straightahead jazz (standards, etc.), it's almost always on upright. And when they play electric, it's almost always for "jazzy" but not straightahead jazz settings -- jazz/rock, fusion, jazz funk, etc.

Eric Hochberg · #19 04-01-2011, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tampabass

I'm a doubler, and for upright gigs I play the upright almost exclusively.

Begs the question, doesn't it? What exactly is an upright gig?

Lester4string · #20 04-01-2011, 08:43 AM

I've been met with this attitude, but mostly by Jazz guys (piano players) in their 70s and 80s. I firmly believe the attitude that electric bass is unacceptable will die with them. Although, knowing upright has got me so many more gigs than electric and learning how to play upright better has helped me become a better musician overall. Maybe thats just how I learn...