Ethics question

PB+J · #1 05-21-2010, 12:43 PM

A while ago I answered an ad on Craiglist for a guy looking for a bass player. He's a piano player, he had a woman singing, he said he was looking for somebody to do serious rehearsing and then start looking for gigs. He's a pretty good player, accomplished but tends to way over think things. He wanted to kind of micromanage the bass parts, and he's a persnickety guy, but I was ok with it--it was good practice, and I had nothing else going on, and I was ok with rehearsing twice a week. No sign of any gigs, just a bit of talk.

So during that time I was twice offered gigs by some old friends who needed a fill-in--paying gigs, where I was also doing friends a favor. Twice these gigs were on nights we were supposed to rehearse the trio. I gave him plenty of notice each time, several days.

So the other night i go to rehearse and he tells me that we need to talk "it's come to his attention" that I've missed rehearsals and "do i realize that this sets us back and it's not professional ..." and at that point I zip up the case and say "find another bass player, good luck with that" and walk out.

Am I wrong or is he? My feeling is, I have no contract with him, he has no promise of a gig, I'm going to take the paying gig over the rehearsal, and I'm completely right to do so, and it's in fact reasonable, normal behavior. He thinks this is "unprofessional." I kind of think, forgive me, that "professional" involves "getting paid," not micromanaging charts in his living room.

He's perfectly within his rights to want a bass player who never misses his rehearsal, sure, but I want a lot of things that don't exist in real life, like a pickup that sounds like my bass only louder, or a set of strings that sounds just as good arco as it does pizz. He's wrong to get all high and mighty about it.

I'm done with the guy, it wasn't much fun playing with him, but I wonder what other players think of the ethics of the situation?

Also I'm 50 years old and he's in his late 20s-30s, and he's lecturing me and I'm pretty much f$&k that unless you're paying me.

BassMaster4s · #2 05-21-2010, 12:52 PM

IMO you were right. You gave ample notice about needed to take the night off. Is there a reason rehearsal couldn't be moved to another night? I think this would only be debatable if you blew off a paying gig with him for a different paying gig, which was not the case.

TroyK · #3 05-21-2010, 12:55 PM

You're right. I run into people like this now and again and they drive me batty.

First of all, with a few exceptions, in jazz you shouldn't tell someone else how to play their instrument. When I arrange, I try not to specify to the piano player, for example, how to voice a chord. That's his job. I think it's fair to say "we want sparse, 2-feel" or whatever, but then you got to let people play.

As for the time, you're working he's not. I find this to be a very rock-band centric idea. "Align with us and don't be disloyal". Whether it's going any where or not. You gotta keep your network of other players happy, can't go telling them "well, I've agreed to work with Bob, so I can't sub for you anymore". And you shouldn't be turning down work unless he's actually got some for you. And, what's with "it's come to my attention"? Aren't there only 3 of you? Did someone inform him? Why can't he just say "hey, it's worrying me that you have missed a couple of rehearsals"?

Sounds like a wierdo. Lot's of them out there, many of them looking for people to play with on Craigslist. Don't look back. You certainly did what I would have done. Life's too short.

hgregs · #4 05-21-2010, 01:00 PM

nothing unethical about that

bensdad · #5 05-21-2010, 01:00 PM

I think you did the right thing. You are probably not the first guy (or girl) to walk away from his "management". He should know that musician must play to pay bills. if you have already given him notice that you would not be there to play somewhere he should respect that. Also he is shortsighted as you may be able to get him gigs or places to play as you are making contact within the local and maybe national scene. Sounds like he also wanted to do everything himself if he is trying to micro manage the bass parts also. He will learn, as he will have a difficult time finding somebody that will put up with it and also word will get around.
Just think, at least now you don't have to check in anymore or hold back when you hear a line go different than the "bossman"

PB+J · #6 05-21-2010, 01:10 PM

Ok, thanks, this is what I was thinking, that my behavior was about normal. I was just so astonished by his self righteous attitude. It was one of those "is reality not quite what I thought? moments.

Yes, also I think he is going to have a VERY hard time finding a bass player if he expects the guy to turn down paid work in order to rehearse

PB+J · #7 05-21-2010, 01:21 PM

Also yes TroyK that's always been my understanding as well--it's jazz, let the guy play his instrument in his voice.

Lo-E · #8 05-21-2010, 01:23 PM

It doesn't seem to me like you were out of line at all.

If he were an easier person to talk to, it might've been helpful to take the time to lay things out for him when you left and explain why things didn't work out. That might not have saved your working relationship with him but it might've helped him in the long run to avoid being dropped like a hot potato in the future by some other, frustrated bassist.

Sadly, it doesn't sound to me like he's the kind of person you could have had that conversation with, so he wasn't able to benefit from your experience. His education will just have to come a little more slowly.

Roger Davis · #9 05-21-2010, 01:42 PM

Rehearsals (non paid) fit round gigs every time where I come from. Having said that, I passed up the chance of appearing on a national TV quiz because a rehearsal was penned in. But there again, TV quiz isn't music so no inconsistency there.

Your piano friend will have to get older and wiser very quickly.

tZer · #10 05-21-2010, 02:05 PM

My only criticism is that when he presented his concern, you seemed to snap to your 'I quit' mode without the benefit of even a polite discussion. While he may be wrong or didn't present himself very well, I think you could have at least politely discussed the situation and then, if there wasn't a way to resolve it, politely resigned as opposed to "What? I Quit. Bye."

Otherwise there does not seem to be any ethical issues here. Only two strong personalities finding out quickly that they don't belong in the same band.

johnz · #11 05-21-2010, 03:21 PM

Hey PB+J I think you were spot on.

I've read enough of your posts to expect that you were your normal polite and diplomatic self.

In the SF Bay Area, it's the norm to bag a practice for a gig. I just did that a week ago. In my case, I circulated an email to the parties concerned because we hadn't explicitly talked about that. They were unanimous in their response: "Of course! Go play the gig! We can reschedule."

I for one, appreciate the attitude that motivates you to chase down any reasonable (or near reasonable) playing opportunity. Even a few days off and I feel my timing / "band sense" slipping.

Of course, having that attitude can get you into some "less than ideal" situations. From what you describe, it sounds like you'd come to the end of the road with that character anyway.

All the best <- JZ

Eric Hochberg · #12 05-21-2010, 03:21 PM

When he talked "professional", that's when you should have hit him up for the same money you'll make on the gig, to do his rehearsal. See how pro he is...

Square Bear · #13 05-21-2010, 04:00 PM

if i go into a situation like this i don't expect to ever get paid. i won't do this kind of stuff unless it's very rewarding, musically speaking.

when he asked about missing rehearsals, why didn't you just tell him you had other engagements that took priority? most people will understand that. it sounds like you guys weren't really working out to begin with if you couldn't have had a simple conversation about it. i know what you mean though, it makes me a little irritated when non professionals start lecturing on professionalism. non pro gigs are a hobby like skiing or golf, and a lot of people don't get that.

salcott · #14 05-21-2010, 04:24 PM

Sounds like on top of everything else, piano guy doesn't know how to work with a bass player; I'm guessing the "micromanagement" was to make sure you duplicated his left pinky at all times.

Jack Clark · #15 05-21-2010, 04:43 PM

I assume there weren't any agreements that you would forsake any other activities--paid or otherwise--to attend this guy's rehearsals. There probably wasn't an agreement that you wouldn't, either, right? Then you still had those issues to agree on, and you couldn't. So . . . I don't see an ethics problem here.

He just sounds like a difficult person to work with--kind of a nut on wanting everthing precisely so to an extreme. Sounds like a personality mismatch that was going to happen eventually anyway.

That being said, wouldn't it be something if he turned out to be the next Bill Evans?

longfinger · #16 05-21-2010, 05:22 PM

Like tZer wrote, what you did was fine, but how you reacted to his comment, according to what you wrote in your OP, may have been a bit abrupt.

When he brought up the phrase "do i realize that this sets us back and it's not professional ..." , that's when you could have calmly clarified that you are a professional musician and that is why you must take a paying gig over a non paid rehearsal. Explain that as working musician, you get called for paying gigs very often and will take them as they appear. Now, if the rehearsal was a paying rehearsal, (yes they do exist,) then you could accept or decline gigs around that paid rehearsal. (which in essence becomes a gig because it's paid.) Offer a reasonable rate for the rehearsal.

At that time you could have re-affirmed your skill and value as a professional bassist, and explain your limited time to partake in rehearsals that are not for an approaching gig. A reasonable approach would be for the composer to make charts for all the original songs. Once he has enough songs/charts for a gig, he could book a show and then called you in for a rehearsal to go over all the tunes in one shot. (Were you rehearsing his original songs?) Those kinds of gigs rarely bring in money for anyone... sadly.

There are ways to diplomatically handle situations like that, good practice rehearsals, ok fun, versus paying gigs.

However, if the person was unpleasant to be with, then just stop dealing with him, as you did.

TroyK · #17 05-21-2010, 07:26 PM

Then again, he was a kid, who probably was told about "being professional" in university and through this interaction he got a real life lesson in what that means from someone who's been around a bit. Maybe he'll learn from it. Either way, it sounds like he needs you much more than you need him. You've already spent too much time worrying about it, in my opinion.

Getting vibed by a more experienced player used to be a part of the process. I'm not saying that it always has to be that way, but it may still have it's place.

My guess is that a year from now, he and this singer will have their first gig together as singer supported by solo pianist.

MR PC · #18 05-21-2010, 08:16 PM

Of course you've done the right thing, given the circumstances. From what I'm hearing here though, it would have been best to be out front, before you ever played a note, about how valuable your time is. Live and learn (again).

PB+J · #19 05-22-2010, 04:20 AM

I really appreciate all the opinions. It confirms that I was right to be both surprised and irked by his attitude. But also I could have been cooler and more diplomatic--that I completely agree with.

The thing is, at the gig I took, I actually described the trio and asked the place if they were looking for something like that. They said no, they had a long list of bands rotating in. But it could have easily led to a gig for the trio

jdombrow · #20 05-22-2010, 07:39 AM

I don't think it's a matter of who's right or wrong, or a question of ethics. In all relationships, you need to follow your heart and your gut. I've been in similar situations, where I've decided to work with a particular individual or group when I'm not really in love with the situation, but doing it for the experience. If it stirs up a lot of negative emotions I simply (and honestly) tell them it's not working out and my heart's not in it.

The key is in how you leave. If you blame them, they'll think you were an a**hole and they won't want to work with you again (and maybe that reputation will follow you).

If you leave with grace and humility, they'll be more likely to say good things about you and work with you in the future.