First Jazz Gig

[Steve Killingsworth]

About 2 months ago at a bluegrass jam, I made the aquaintance of a guitarist whose primary thing is jazz. We struck up a conversation and jammed on a few tunes. To make a long story short, I have been asked to join a trio (2 guitars and me) and we have a gig coming up in about a month. I am excited but also somewhat uneasy. This is a major stretch for me because I have never done more than just dabble with some simple jazz tunes. Also, these guys are really good--I have played with lots of hot flatpickers but NOTHING like these two.

At this time, they haven't given me a very detailed play list. I am reasonably confident we will play:

Minor Swing
Footprints
Autumn Leaves
All Blues
Sweet Georgia Brown
Mr. PC

Beyond that, I have no idea what to expect.

What advice would you grizzled old vets offer me to increase my chances of survivial?

[jallenbass]

Chances of survival? Nice knowin' ya

If they asked you to play with them then they probably like what they hear. If you don't know a tune just keep it simple and concentrate on feel. Eventually you'll be confident on most of the tunes. It's great to play with those who are more experienced because there is so much that one can learn from the experience. Have fun!

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by Steve Killingsworth

I am reasonably confident we will play:

Minor Swing
Footprints
Autumn Leaves
All Blues
Sweet Georgia Brown
Mr. PC

Beyond that, I have no idea what to expect.

What advice would you grizzled old vets offer me to increase my chances of survivial?

Hello Steve,

Knowing what I know now about jazz bass, I'd start writing out bass lines for each of these songs...working through note choices and so on to find what made me happy and then woodshedding them.

Then after I got past that step I'd start analyzing the songs, learning the melodies, looking for modes and scales that might be useful for soloing, and start experimenting.

But the first step (walking lines) is the most important part that's what everyone will want most. Rufus Reid says eventually all this writing and analyzing won't be necessary but I haven't gotten that far yet.

If you need help getting started with the walking, Chris Fitzgerald has a super writeup on how to get started in the music theory helpful links. That's the same strategy Lynn Seaton started us with in band camp, and it really saved my ass in getting off the ground successfully.

[Damon Rondeau]

Play basic lines and concentrate on keeping the form together and the time tight -- the 32 bar structure takes some getting used to if you've been doing less complex forms forever and ever.

You're going to be on the tightrope a bit when they look at you and say "take it, Steve!" Then you've got 32 bars or whatever to do your thing. As much as you may want to, don't shake off the solo! There are lots of examples -- older, sure -- of bassists walking their way through a solo. Find a few notes you dig and hammer on 'em like hell! It gets very quiet in bass-solo time and you realize very quickly that you're not Red Mitchell. But there's really no way to learn the solo thing without soloing. Theory, yeah, but playing is the thing. As our friend Sam Sherry likes to point out: the first 100 are hard. Jump in and keep swimming for a couple of years. One day not too far down the line you'll listen to a playback of one of your solos and you'll be mighty proud...

[Sam Sherry]

Originally Posted by Johnny L

Knowing what I know now about jazz bass, I'd start writing out bass lines for each of these songs...

Ah, no. Steve is a lot more musical than that and I don't recommend that for anybody, anytime.

Steve, way to go! You have plenty of ears. They're good players but they put their pants on one leg at a time. They wouldn't be working with you if they didn't want you along. (You know this is just gonna make your bluegrass groove deeper too.)

Here are a few thoughts:

Tunes: I'd start living with the four classic Miles Davis Quintet records on Prestige -- Workin', Steamin', Cookin' and Relaxin'. (They're all for download on EMusic, by the way.) The repertoire on these records pretty much defined the Straight-Ahead Jazz setlist for years and you can't go wrong with any of that stuff. Pop those puppies on, turn off the bass and play along with Red & Philly Joe.

Approach: You obviously have done a lot of listening to jazz but to touch on the obvious, try making your quarter-notes as long as possible. That is not a Fixed Rule of the Jazz Universe but it's a direction to head in as you start making the distinction between bluegrass and jazz.

Soloing: Take your time. Don't be afraid to leave space. You're already listening to Ray & Scotty, so what more can be said?

Last advice: Have fun, hombre. Let us know how you make out.

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by Sam Sherry

Ah, no. Steve is a lot more musical than that and I don't recommend that for anybody, anytime.

Sorry I didn't mean to offend anyone here, not even you or Steve.

Still, why do you say this?

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Sam Sherry

Ah, no. Steve is a lot more musical than that and I don't recommend that for anybody, anytime.

Steve, way to go! You have plenty of ears. They're good players but they put their pants on one leg at a time. They wouldn't be working with you if they didn't want you along. (You know this is just gonna make your bluegrass groove deeper too.)

Here are a few thoughts:

Tunes: I'd start living with the four classic Miles Davis Quintet records on Prestige -- Workin', Steamin', Cookin' and Relaxin'. (They're all for download on EMusic, by the way.) The repertoire on these records pretty much defined the Straight-Ahead Jazz setlist for years and you can't go wrong with any of that stuff. Pop those puppies on, turn off the bass and play along with Red & Philly Joe.

Approach: You obviously have done a lot of listening to jazz but to touch on the obvious, try making your quarter-notes as long as possible. That is not a Fixed Rule of the Jazz Universe but it's a direction to head in as you start making the distinction between bluegrass and jazz.

Soloing: Take your time. Don't be afraid to leave space. You're already listening to Ray & Scotty, so what more can be said?

Last advice: Have fun, hombre. Let us know how you make out.

I agree 100% with this and what other people have said about going for the feel and not necessarily worrying about the actual notes played - that was some of the best advice I was given by Jazz pros/teachers - if you have a good feel and swing then, people will be listening to that and won't worry if the odd note wasn't 100% correct in the context!

[Marcus Johnson]

Great Miles pic.

Steve, since you can already play and have great ears, you can probably just spend the next month listening to all the obvious great jazz recordings that are often discussed here. I usually suggest the benchmark of Ray Brown as a starting point, but it could be whatever applies to your situation. John Clayton has said a lot about the virtues of learning with your ears, and i think that there's a lot of merit in that approach.

Since you're already playing bluegrass, you probably already have a fat sound and good time. That will serve you well playing jazz. Although soloing is nice, it isn't the primary reason that most jazz musicians hire a bassist. Good time and tone are usually at the top of the list. So you probably already have the basic tools that you need.

Welcome to the club. Have fun and let us know how it goes.

[Sam Sherry]

Originally Posted by Johnny L

Sorry I didn't mean to offend anyone here, not even you or Steve.

Naw, sorry; I obviously was too blunt. Please accept my apology.

Originally Posted by JL

Still, why do you say this?

Reason number zero: Because it is never too early to learn that jazz is about listening to what is going on around you. The opposite of that is pasting pre-programmed noises into what would otherwise be musical situations. Working out parts and then playing them in musical situations is ear-poison.

Reason number one: "Writing out parts" is one small step from "memorizing bits of quasi-musical noise" which is one teeny-tiny-and-highly-probable step from "forgetting bits of quasi-musical noise in the middle" which is exactly the same as "train-wreck." In short, if people try to play something memorized, not only do they make it harder for them to hear what's actually going on around them but they also increase the chances of sounding bad when they screw it up.

Punch line number "A": Steve K is an experienced bluegrasser with big ears. He's a prime candidate to learn jazz by listening, listening and thinking and I'd hate to see him skip the first two steps.

Punch line number "B": I dunno, JL. Listening to parts is good. Trying to figure out what you're hearing is good. Using pen and paper to help you figure things out is perfectly OK. Composing your own bassline on paper sounds a lot like "not listening." But I'm wrong all the time and I may be wrong here too . . .

Thanks again.

[Pcocobass]

Originally Posted by Sam Sherry

Tunes: I'd start living with the four classic Miles Davis Quintet records on Prestige -- Workin', Steamin', Cookin' and Relaxin'. (They're all for download on EMusic, by the way.) The repertoire on these records pretty much defined the Straight-Ahead Jazz setlist for years and you can't go wrong with any of that stuff. Pop those puppies on, turn off the bass and play along with Red & Philly Joe.

Great advice as usual, Sam. You can spend years learning with just those four! I'd also recommend transcribing some of Paul Chamber's basslines from these records to give you some ideas for walking. You might be surprised how simple and direct his lines are, and how they perfectly outline the chord changes.

Good luck!
Pete

[hdiddy]

Congrats on the gig. I just played my first paid gig last weekend myself. Watch out boys!

Originally Posted by RONDO ALA DAMON

Play basic lines and concentrate on keeping the form together and the time tight -- the 32 bar structure takes some getting used to if you've been doing less complex forms forever and ever.

+1. I think also emphasize that when for my gig, when it came time to play it was much more useful to just focus on the KISS aspect. Strong time, strong support, playing lots of roots, and no screwing up the form. I also focused more on supporting the band in various ways. For instance, sometimes I would go straight into walking lines during the head if the pianist started losing it a little bit on the rhythm end of things.

Once I had those down, I focused more on playing at fast tempos, which is one of my weaknesses. Also if you haven't done it alot, I would spend some time practicing playing during Trading 4's or 8's. I used to lose my count sometimes and you probably want to make sure you come in on the right beat. I would imagine that you'll want to spend some time playing broken 2 feel as well since you may not have done it that much. That stuff can be tricky.

Anyways, HTHs. Break a leg!

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by Sam Sherry

Composing your own bassline on paper sounds a lot like "not listening."

Thanks Sam no hard feelings. Lots of ways up Music Mountain for sure!

[gomez hacienda]

Lots of great, well seasoned advice here...thanks to all from yours truly.

I can say with certainty, that when I started to trust my ears on the DB, a whole new world opened up to me. All I had to do was put aside all that stuff I did during my all-too-structured, pre-jazz years on the dreaded-fretted slab.

...+1 with a bullet on those great Miles "Prestige" albums.

gomez

[Damon Rondeau]

Originally Posted by Sam Sherry

Punch line number "B": I dunno, JL. Listening to parts is good. Trying to figure out what you're hearing is good. Using pen and paper to help you figure things out is perfectly OK. Composing your own bassline on paper sounds a lot like "not listening."

To me it also sounds a lot like "not trusting myself to listen and make meaningful contributions; not allowing myself the freedom to make my clams like everyone else and to learn from them."

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

To me it also sounds a lot like "not trusting myself to listen and make meaningful contributions; not allowing myself the freedom to make my clams like everyone else and to learn from them."

Hmm well for me really it's about slowing the song down to the point where I can contribute at all, to begin making clams and learning.

If my suggestions appear too elementary or perhaps counterproductive to making music then I am sorry to have offended and/or appeared to have "butted in" to a thread where I don't belong.

In standing behind my advice to myself and anyone else reading my posts, I appeal to ignorance and listening to the advice of players much greater than me for my defense.

Sure it would all be pointless if one can't hear what you or someone else writes. Writing or reading anything would be a waste then. There are some songs I look at on paper and I don't have a clue what's going on, and some that I sightread that make no musical sense to me. Miles Davis' Nardis has been like that for me and I've had to spend a great deal more time listening and thinking about it than, say, Stevie Ray Vaughan's Pride and Joy. It's much more exotic to my ears and I've only recently become familiar with the harmonic minor scale.

But regardless of all this drilling-down and mining for gold, best of luck Steve!

[Damon Rondeau]

I guess we should all keep in mind that people have different approaches to things. Some folks are analytical, some are anything but. Some folks need to be systematic and methodical, others not. We all learn and deal with information in different ways; as students and as people our personalities are different.

But the best jazz has always been about the moment, the music as it is going down now.

[Pcocobass]

Originally Posted by Johnny L

Hmm well for me really it's about slowing the song down to the point where I can contribute at all, to begin making clams and learning.

If my suggestions appear too elementary or perhaps counterproductive to making music then I am sorry to have offended and/or appeared to have "butted in" to a thread where I don't belong.

In standing behind my advice to myself and anyone else reading my posts, I appeal to ignorance and listening to the advice of players much greater than me for my defense.

Sure it would all be pointless if one can't hear what you or someone else writes. Writing or reading anything would be a waste then. There are some songs I look at on paper and I don't have a clue what's going on, and some that I sightread that make no musical sense to me. Miles Davis' Nardis has been like that for me and I've had to spend a great deal more time listening and thinking about it than, say, Stevie Ray Vaughan's Pride and Joy. It's much more exotic to my ears and I've only recently become familiar with the harmonic minor scale.

But regardless of all this drilling-down and mining for gold, best of luck Steve!

I don't think there is anything wrong with diving into a tune and really analyzing it or even writing out basslines. I think Sam's point is that you shouldn't rely on pre-written lines at a gig. (Correct me if I'm wrong Sam). Instead, you should be listening and following where the music goes. You can play a whole sh*tload of different changes for a simple standard like "Autumn Leaves" and that's why you don't want to just memorize a singe way of navigating the chord progression. It's not gonna help on the gig when the piano player is subbing every other change.

Having said that, I'm all for writing out basslines and learning melodies and playing arpeggios, etc. as an aid to playing, especially walking. It really helps to internalize a song and get your head straight. Just don't take your written lines to your gig and play them verbatim. That is not and never will be jazz.

Hope this helps.
P-

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by Pcocobass

Having said that, I'm all for writing out basslines and learning melodies and playing arpeggios, etc. as an aid to playing, especially walking. It really helps to internalize a song and get your head straight. Just don't take your written lines to your gig and play them verbatim. That is not and never will be jazz.

Er, just to debate for fun, I think this kind of sentiment may be changing?

I think the issue at hand here is that we're playing STANDARDS. I don't think anybody is arguing that written lines can be useful as a learning or analysis tool. IMO, the biggest problem with written parts for a jazz standard is that the music is no longer fresh and in-the-moment. Already, the standard itself is something that has been played to death and as an artists, we're trying to breathe new life into it every time we play it by improvising. Playing a written part for the entirety of a jazz standard leaves it pretty lifeless. What's the point? You might as well go home and listen to a record than hear a jazz cover band. Know what I mean?

But I'm thinking that maybe the adherence to jazz being nothing but Improvization is changing. Don't get me wrong, it's still what 98% of the people define jazz, but I think some major artists are doing things where it's more "orchestrated". The only name I can think of is Kurt Rosenwinkel. He's got a few pieces that are totally written out (I think "Dreams of Old" is one from Enemies of Energy). Actually, Raymond Scott, who isn't exactly a huge jazz household name, is one who wrote everything out. Even the solos for all instruments. His stuff is incredible. He's the guy who wrote "Powerhouse" and alot of the other themes that ended up being used in the old Looney Tunes back in the 30's. Listening to it, you would think that most of it is improvised, but it isn't. Not one bit.

So yeah, I think you don't have to improvise ALL the time, just have good reason when you do. They're all just tools, and I think it would be too rigid to define Jazz as strictly "improvised" music. But as beginners, we should be improvising 99% of the time.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Writing is for the desk and for the practice room. Writing basslines is a great learning tool, like training wheels on a bike. In the driveway, you do what you gotta do to keep from breaking your skull while you learn to balance, and training wheels are fine for this. Once you get out of your driveway, you need to be able to keep your balance without them.

Steve - practice your *** off, learn some tunes, then go listen, play good time, and have fun on the gig. Best wishes from the land of rednecks and overalls!

[TroyK]

When I was where you were, I planned lines through changes on a few specific songs so that I could get through a gig or jam session on them. It so happens that Autumn Leaves is one of those songs. For that first few months, every time someone called Autumn Leaves, I played the same line (maybe with a planned variation).

To this day, it's hard for me to NOT play that line when someone calls Autumn Leaves in that key. I don't have that problem with songs I didn't memorize planned lines on. I got to a point where I tried to refuse to play Autumn Leaves because I hated it so much and was such a rut for me, but then I realized that Death, Taxes and Autumn Leaves were unavoidable and it's actually a very nice song.

So, I transcribed Sam Jones' line from Something Else. I started asking people I play with if we could do it in other keys because it took me out of those patterns. Sometimes it gets played as a ballad, sometimes as a cooker. A piano player I know reharmonized the s*** out of it.

What's my point? What's my advice?

I don't have any. I did what I had to that month to get started. It worked, but I'm still digging myself out of the hole it planted me in on those songs. Maybe the same would be true for you. Be warned and decide what your priorities are and I understand that you'll need to do something less than ideal to get through the gig. Personally, I don't believe that it's possible to learn to play jazz without doing it with other people. Preferably people who are better than you.

Be happy that you're taking this step. I hope it goes great for you and that you keep going with it. Every piece of advice you've gotten in this thread has merit, even the contridictory pieces.

Let us know how it goes.

Troy