Genius? Maybe Si, maybe No.

[Paul Warburton]

Hi my dears.
After a long three year lay-off of my playing....I'm back. I'm now fairly active...teaching even. THAT is HUGE for me since I'm self taught and haven't much of a clue what the hell I'm doing. Students know that, and teach ME how to teach them.....pretty damn cool. We laugh a lot.
I've been asked THIS question many times, and thought you all might help me shed some light on the subject.
Question: Who, if ANYBODY, do you consider to be a musical genius? Any instrument. (vocalists even) Any musical genre, composers. As long as it involves music. Present OR past. Alive OR dead.
For me, the word is highly over used, but I think there might be some of these freaks.
Of course, as usual lately, we will prolly be inundated with a lot of jive and so called humorists. I know what you are thinking....NO....I will try to stay focused AND not go out there on y'all.
If we get some people from the other side, cool. Please no bickering. As I've been doing lately on some threads here, when I feel the folks are becoming idiotic (IMO) I quietly delete my posts and PM any friends who provide links to my threads or posts and ask them to delete those. I've done this on that newer Bill Evans thread.
If I feel this thread is gong in a direction that I don't feel comfortable with, I refuse to slap any hands or asses. I'll just leave.
SO?
PS....Of course, it's cool to be conversational and exchange ideas AND disagreements are great. Just didn't want any ugliness.
DURRL.....dust off the Kitties.

[christ andronis]

Paul...being a good teacher means taking what you know (which, in your case, is considerable) and being able to "translate" it into something your students will be able to understand. Just the fact that you let your students help guide you is a great teacher trait. You're doing just fine, I'm sure. Plus, with that wacky sense of humor...you're a natural. Welcome back!

Sorry...didn't mean to waiver from the OP. Musical genius? Subjective, but if one were to gauge that by impact on music, certainly J.S. Bach would have to be right up there. No doubt that you can see his influence in alot of subsequent music. As far as contemporary musicians, I think Chick Corea is the same sort of artist. There are so many more, but these two are ones I keep coming back to. Of course, what the **** do I know? (in other words..IMO)

[Joshua]

Genius? I can't imagine there will be any disagreements here!



I agree wholeheartedly about the subjective nature of the label, as what makes my heart go pitter pat (musically speaking) might mean nothing to someone else. So all that said, I'll simply name my all-time fave musician; Hank Jones.

The man's time, touch, and choice of notes simply moves me. To paraphrase a great quote I read somewhere about him: "the man has played decade after decade and has yet to play a bad note".

Cheers!

[Treyzer]

Paul, for me there are a few that could not be anything else: Mozart would be up there as well as J.S. Bach.

In the jazz world, for me, Bill Evans because he changed how people even thought about jazz piano playing; Scott LaFarro for accomplishing so much at such a high level in such a short time. Miles Davis for his tone musicality and fearlessness. Charlie Parker for changing everything about sax playing. There is Jazz pre Parker and after Parker.

More modern players: Chick Corea. I have admired him for a long time and I've seen him play quite a few times....genius!

Herbie Hancock...beautiful and amazing......

Maybe Jaco Pastorius...He changed how bass guitar was palyed and did so much in a short span of time.

I know there are many more but these are the ones that spring to mind without thinking too hard.

P.S. Welcome back Paul. I'm sure your students are blessed. It's good to hear that you are enjoying life. I look forward to hearing your duets project.

T

[NJL]

I have always thought Miles and Trane were really pushing it..

[reedo35]

I think Trane's experimentation with chord substitutions was
genius. Monk, too. On the classical side, Mahler and Hindemith were total innovators, too.

[NJL]

Originally Posted by reedo35

I think Trane's experimentation with chord substitutions was
genius. Monk, too. On the classical side, Mahler and Hindemith were total innovators, too.

Oh, yeah!! Paul Hindemith... I have performed his Trumpet Sonata a few times, gotta know how to really count on that one!! Also, we performed his Symphony in B♭, that was interesting..

[zeytoun]

Can this noob play?

To me, a musical genius is someone who comes up with a new way of playing an instrument. How different it is, and how much it influenced subsequent music are two big variables in how much of a genius they were.

Someone who plays amazingly well and/or with great feeling, but doesn't do this innovation is a wonderful musician, but not a musical genius (and I don't mean this as a qualitative difference, just a categorical difference). For example, by this definition, someone like Ella Fitzgerald was an amazing virtuoso who never sang a sour note, and scatted better than just about anyone, but she didn't invent scatting or great intonation and phrasing.

A few musical geniuses on my list:
Thelonious Monk (for his "melodious thunk")
John Coltrane (for the "Coltrane changes")
Django Reinhardt (for inventing gypsy jazz)
João Gilberto (for the bossa nova beat)

Ok, back to the experts.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I'll leave the discussions of the all time greats to you guys, but will stick to the few examples of musical genius that I've met personally:

Gyorgy Ligeti - met him back in '85 or '86 when he came to accept the Grawemeyer award for composition here in the 'Ville. An absolutely brilliant man with a wonderful sense of humor. He'd been through some serious **** in his lifetime, but still had a wonderful outlook on life.

Kenny Barron - the modern day J.S. Bach of jazz, and one of my musical role models for the past 20 years.

Chick Corea - an absolutely fearless player whose playing is as full of joy now as when I first heard him 25 years ago.

Jean-Michel Pilc - the most ferocious and creative energy I've ever been blessed to share the stage with. I'm guessing he and Ligeti probably have a similarly developed sense of rhythm, which is to say, completely off the charts. Wonderful and funny guy to hang with as well.

[TomSauter]

Is there a difference between genius and prodigy? I think I would consider Art Tatum, Charlie Parker, and Tony Williams to be geniuses. James Williams said the only 2 people he knew that he thought were geniuses were Ralph Peterson and Kenny Drew Jr. Then there's the Montgomery brothers and the Newborn brothers, they all have perfect pitch and some kind of total recall ability, and the newborns were supposed to be really great at lots of different instruments. Maybe people like Edgar Meyer and Marcus Roberts are geniuses, I think it's hard to say

[zeytoun]

While meanings are what we decide them to be, the origins of the words "genius" and "prodigy" are interesting. Prodigy in its Latin context refers to something miraculous in nature, like a child so talented it seemed like a prophetic portent. Genius comes from the Islamic creatures we know as Genies (Jinns), and has the notion of a guardian spirit that is the source of "inspirational" ideas that are out of this world.

Maybe those origins have little merit in this discussion; but I guess I personally follow those meanings, which is why I wouldn't say that brilliance is genius, per se. Of course, brilliance is a perfectly acceptable synonym for genius for most English speakers, and who am I to disagree.

[reedo35]

not bad, Zehtoun. People do tend to throw those titles around pretty freely these days, but I think my answer still stands.

[Nathan Parker]

What about Jimmy Blanton? Maybe genius is a little much, but certainly no one could play the double bass the same way after he came on the scene. At least in jazz, he's got to be one of the most influential.

[zeytoun]

Originally Posted by reedo35

not bad, Zehtoun. People do tend to throw those titles around pretty freely these days, but I think my answer still stands.

Yeah, funny while I was writing my post, you had put up Coltrane and Monk, and NJL had put up Coltrane too. I don't know how he managed to simultaneously be completely inspired and innovative, and still be 100% accessible to someone like me.

[Sam Sherry]

I concur regarding "paradigm shifter" as the definition of genius. It has to be more than that, though, or we'd be talking about "Johnny Ramone, Musical Genius!"

For whatever reason, the first names that came to my mind were John Dowland and Nicolo Paganini. Their respective work really helped to define what "virtuoso" means today.

+ + +

As far as our little instrument, among the living I have to add Stanley Clarke as a permanent change-bringer. Gary Karr, certainly.

But really, considering the nature of "musical genius" through the lens of "double-bassist" is like looking at "all-time great athlete" through the lens of "stock-car racer." I hope we're thinking bigger than that. Even "jazz" is such a small pond.

If we're truly discussing musicians with broad social impact, probably the only jazz guy left around would be Ornette Coleman. We should be talking about people like Bob Dylan, Ruben Blades and Paul McCartney.

[Johnny L]

There was a show I watched on PBS a while ago, called Connections.

The common thread linking all the episodes was the argument that the evolution of technological inventions simply consisted of combining previous inventions to produce new results. This is what the men who were noted for their inventions did to make their inventions happen, and they were admired and hailed as geniuses for it...even if it took many men over the course of centuries to combine their discoveries to get to the final invention being studied by the program.

I think that Les Paul was a musical genius, myself, though he may not have been the first person to invent the electric guitar.

I think Miles Davis was a musical genius too, especially in bringing other fantastic players together with him to delve into a musical project. Some of his recordings sound like arguments between the players to me about the right way to approach a musical idea.

I think Jamey Abersold's a genius too, for leveraging recording technologies to communicate his ideas about a systematic approach to learning jazz by anyone with a basic musical understanding and command of their instruments and music notation.

[LarryR]

What a fascinating topic. What IS genius?

When I think of genius in music I first think of an other-worldly player. If the stories are true that Mozart (as a child) heard a concert and played it at home that night, that's genius...or is it?
I think of someone not only totally free'd up, but, who have never really been duplicated. Still, is that genius or just par excellence?
A couple 20th century contemporary guys who struck me hard:

TomSauter's pick:
ART TATUM

I'll add: James Jamerson & Wes Montgomery. LaFaro with Bill Evans. But, is this true genius or militant individuality?

[Aaron Saunders]

My pick would definitely have to be Bill Evans. More than any artist, his music stirs real emotional reactions for me.

Although he might not fit, my time studying with Don Palmer makes me want to throw him in this list. One of my only regrets about school was not seeking out more opportunities to learn from him.

BTW, great to hear you're back to playing and getting into teaching. Listening to your version of "My One and Only Love" right now, haha -- it's been one of my favourite tracks for a couple years now.

[MR PC]

I think the musical universe is full of genius......... much genius goes without notice......the few that are acknowledged by the many are...... just that. The few.

J.S. Bach and Mozart certainly provided the mold, form and inspiration for "genius" in western music! There must of been others like them in their times.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by Warmbulloks

Question: Who, if ANYBODY, do you consider to be a musical genius? Any instrument. (vocalists even) Any musical genre, composers. As long as it involves music. Present OR past. Alive OR dead.

I'm more confused now than when I first read the question. Paradigm shifters are often genius but not all genius shifts paradigm. Is the same true for prodigy? Is prodigy genius if it changes nothing? Is prodigy even relevant?

What are we really asking here? Is this supposed to be a who's who of our most influential? Perhaps a historical recanting of heavy cats from the past? Maybe we are looking for a definitive list of extra heavy cats vs. moderately heavy cats.

How can we compare J.S. Bach to Paul McCartney or Miles Davis?

Should this list then be open to Wagner or Tristano who's presence in the Hall of Fame will always have political or social asterisks?

How do we compare the impact of Mozart to the impact of George Jones or Robert Johnson? What about Elvis? Jimmy Hendrix? Freddie Mercury? Can we compare their achievements to Ornette Coleman without the bias of our childhood favorites, or what we were banging to when we busted cherry? Who are we leaving out or including and why?

What about people that are oft scorned like Andrew Lloyd Weber or Kenny G vs. Cole Porter or Charlie Parker. Are they even close? Game changers? Probably. Worthy of living on the same list? I don't know but none can be denied their place as heavy cats. Are any of them as heavy as Mozart or Bach?

Is Frank Sinatra or Bing Crosby or Tony Bennett the same as Johnny Hartman or Billy Eckstein, or is racism the only thing keeping them apart? Then what about Ella Fitzgerald or Billy Holiday?

Do any of them count?

Everyone I've just mentioned are heavy cats, and there are piles more. Are they all genius or paradigm shifters or prodigies?

What are we discussing here anyhow?

My confusion begs for clarification otherwise this deteriorates into yet another banal list of musical who's who. That's a five minute click through on Wikipedia for a 3rd grade book report.