Going Back to College?

[bobbykokinos]

Hey all, I was hoping I could get some help/advice here.. This may be kinda long, so please bear with me.

Right now, I do not like my current work situation. I work in commercial real estate and there is alot of financial responsibility on my shoulders. I want to get out of it all together. The problem is, it pays my bills right now. The only thing that keeps me sane anymore is going out and playing gigs. BUT, there arent many opportunities to make a living playing around here. The only redeaming thing about my job I have now is the easy hours. But, the financial responsibility is become more than I deal with.

I went to college for music for 3 years, then switched out to a general studies degree. To be totally honest, I screwed around alot in college and just wanted to get out. Now, I'm considering going back and really focusing. Ultimately, I would love to teach jazz double bass on a higher academic level. Problem is, I'm not really proficient with theory. I've always done the "I'm going to play was sounds right" thing without really giving thought to what it means theoretically. I know enough theory to get my by, but probably not enough to enter a masters program. On the positive side, I have quite a bit of playing experience with big bands and some quartet experience. My soloing lacks (which I think is attributed to my theory) but I feel as if I'm quite solid other wise.

Now that I'm a few years older, I'm realizing I screwed up when I was in college and I'm willing to really focus now. I've just realized that music/double bass is what I SHOULD be doing. I want to be able to have my job, associated with DB, and still be able to play gigs.

Any help or suggestions? The biggest draw back right now is, if I go back to college, I dont know what I'll do to pay the bills. The situation I'm in right now has kinda got me down.

Also, if this makes any difference, I dont play soley DB. I'd say my skill on electric is about where my DB skill are..

[Freddels]

I think the same thing. I left college without finishing my music degree (ended up doing a couple of other degrees though) and always think about going back to finish and then getting a MM.

But then I think about what would I do with that degree and how would I support myself and family. If you really want to go back then do it but I'm not sure what kind of employment is out there.

One of my best friends went back a few years ago to get his MM at NT. He had a 4.0 gpa undergrad for his BM at NT and also got a 4.0 gpa for his MM at NT. He was the guitarist in the 1 o'clock lab band back when he was an undergrad and then again when he did his masters. He can play and knows theory inside and out. He still had a difficult time finding a teaching position at the univ level. He did find one eventually.

It's not an easy gig to get and I'm sure that those on this forum that have those gigs can tell you more.

Best of luck in your decision.

[relacey]

I hesitated to post my input, since it's not exactly the same situation but take from it what you will. I went back to graduate school after 9 years of corporate engineering. My goal was an academic position and a Ph.D. is a requirement. I also had a wife and three little kids during this time in school. I'm not going to kid you, it was hard. The academic part was actually pretty easy; I was more motivated, more mature, and didn't waste any time. But it puts a lot of stress on a family and you will need their full support. As I now tell my students fifteen years later: I'm glad I did it and I'd never do it again.

I suspect to teach music at the University level you'll need an MFA or other graduate degree, so you're probably looking at 5 or more years to finish your BA and go through a graduate program.

As far as the practical stuff goes: Pay off all the debts you can, cut down on your life style, and make sure you have the basics covered before you start school. It will probably cost more than you think and many colleges are raising tuition and fees every year. I now have two in college, so trust me on this. If you wife has a job that includes benefits that will help a lot.

Also, don't forget that you'll start out at an entry level position again when you finish school. It took me five or six years after my degree to get back to the salary I was making when I quit the industry job.

Be creative on jobs: I had a band director that took a night watchman's job during college, he said it gave him lots of time to practice. If you can keep your current job and go to school, even better.

I hope I'm not too discouraging. Life is too short to work at a job you hate, but make the change with your eyes open. I spent about two years planning my move back to school before we made the jump. Good luck with your decision.

Ron

[bobbykokinos]

Originally Posted by relacey

I hesitated to post my input, since it's not exactly the same but take from it what you will. I went back to graduate school after 9 years of corporate engineering. My goal was an academic position and a Ph.D. is a requirement. I also had a wife and three little kids during this time in school. I'm not going to kid you, it was hard. The academic part was actually pretty easy; I was more motivated, more mature, and didn't waste any time. But it puts a lot of stress on a family and you will need their full support. As I now tell my students fifteen years later: I'm glad I did it and I'd never do it again.

Thank you for the candid information. I'm not sure if this makes any difference, but Im 26.. No wife, no children, not even a girlfriend (really pathetic, huh?). Right now, I pretty much eat, sleep, drink music. I've been playing enough that I haven't had much time to practice (good and bad thing I guess).

Fortunately, Im in a position that I won't be putting a stress on anyone else except for myself. My worry is how far back I'll have to start over.

My current status: I really have no debts other than my undergrad. Fortunatly, I have great parents who are paying for that but anything above undergrad I pay for. I have a car payment but thats about it. Only other expenses I have are apt, utilities, etc...

For the future (career-wise), I'm not looking at making huge money. I want to live comfortably and be able to support my family (whenever/if that is in the plan for my future). I want to be able to have the time to be able to do the gigs I want to do also.

The only thing that concerns me about going back in finances. I dont think it'll be possible for me to work this job while going to school and gigging for a couple reasons. 1. Time.. I want to really focus on school and not screw around like I did before. 2. The position I am in with this job, I can't take it any longer and need to make a clean cut. Its causing me, and my family (parents), unbelievable amounts of needless stress. Its a long story that I wont go into details, but it is a situation that I don't forsee being good in the long run.

[Freddels]

No wife, no kids, no one but yourself to worry about . . . I wouldn't say that's pathetic. It's an opportunity to do what you want. If you really want to go back to college then do it. There's always UPS at night to make some $ if you can't get enough from gigs.

Go where the tuition isn't too high and the cost of living is fairly low too.

Sounds like you've made up your mind about this. Talk to Chris Fitzgerald and T-Bal and others about what would be a good degree to get. I always thought with a BM in music that a masters in Mus Ed would be good and would enable you to teach all levels but talk to those in the know.

Fred

[bobbykokinos]

Originally Posted by Freddels

No wife, no kids, no one but yourself to worry about . . . I wouldn't say that's pathetic. It's an opportunity to do what you want. If you really want to go back to college then do it. There's always UPS at night to make some $ if you can't get enough from gigs.

Luckly, the cost of living in Indianapolis isnt bad.. Plus, the airport UPS depot is only 15 minutes from my house if I do need a job Thank God, I've been hooked up with several bands that play pretty consistantly.

Edit: Currently my undergrad was a General Studies (with emphasis on Computer Science) and a minor in Music

[relacey]

Wow, I don't know why I read my situation into your life. Probably some deep seated psychological need on my part. So, given your current state in life here's my revised advice:

Bobby, if it's just you, go for it man! Sounds like you're about as well off as can be to do this. I'd talk to different schools, tell them what your goals are, and figure out what you need to do to make it happen. There's plenty of pros on the forum to tell you the ins and outs of the business, but if that's where your passion is, do it. You may never be rich, but you'll be happy and that's worth a whole lot more. Best of luck to you.

Ron

(ps. I didn't marry the second wife until I was older than 26 and that's been working for 23+ years. 26 and single, not pathetic at all.)

[Chris Fitzgerald]

There are a lot of factors involved in the decision that haven't been talked about:

1) Do you plan to return to the same school that you were in when you left off? If so, what were your grades like there, and how much music credit remains for you to graduate? Is there a teacher there whose playing inspires you?

2) If playing the bass is what feeds your soul, then never lose sight of that in the bigger picture. But realize that the bigger picture includes other things like making a living, and many people find that the part of the musical life that includes paying the bills can detract from the part that feeds your soul, and that's a personal decision that each person must weigh on their own. In my case, I went through a period of about 10-15 years where, even though I was scraping by by doing nothing but music (teaching, playing, etc.), much of what I was doing in order to earn a living was in direct opposition to the part of the musical life that was feeding my soul. For example: Playing BG in a society band for about 10 years paid really well, but I HATED it - made me feel like taking a bath every night to wash the gig off of my skin afterwards. Also, teaching "Intro to Music" and "History of Rock" classes at the local community college was a god steady source of income, but had absolutely nothing to do with what I loved about music...and I wondered more than once if it was worth the trade off.

3) About the theory aspect, I'm with you. As a "functional dyslexic", I had a similar problem: I was a natural at aural theory, and a disaster at written/conceptual theory. When I went to undergrad, I chose theory/comp as my major so I could confront that demon head on and either conquer it or die trying (the jury's still out on that one, BTW ). Little did I know that I would end up teaching theory as the main part of my university gig eventually. The point is, just because you feel a weakness in one area doesn't mean that you can't get past that; but it does mean a lot of work.

If you feel that you really need to go back to school for the sake of your sanity and because you feel you can't NOT do it and spend the rest of your life wondering "what if...?", then by all means, go for it. At the same time, realize that you will be entering into the educational system to learn, and sometimes we learn things we never expected to find - for some people, many in fact, they learn that while they love music dearly, the kind of life that is required to pursue it as a sole means of income is not for them...these can be some of the greatest lessons of all, if also the most difficult. So if you go back to school, my best advice is to do it with as open a mind as possible; go, experience what there is to experience, absorb it, then ask your heart what it wants you to do with that experience and information. Whichever way it goes, I wish you the best of luck.

[musicman5string]

My 2 cents:

Grab some lessons with a name guy that's not too far from your area....I think Bob Hurst is in Detroit....but I'm sure there are other guys around.
Tell them what you've told us. I was in a similar situation as you at one time and then I hooked up with Dave Holland for a bit. He told it like it was and set me straight. Then I was lucky to hook up with Rufus Reid and Todd Coolman, who were super important in my developement, and who also were not pulling any punches....
It's never going to be easy trying to make a living doing double bass only....and you better be prepared to struggle for a while before you get some connections. However, this is what did it for me: It's better to try when your 26 and single than when your 46 and married with kids, no?
Best of luck man. Don't be afraid to go for it.

[bobbykokinos]

Now when you guys say "its not going to be easy doing DB only", do you mean trying to make a living off of just performing, or even the teaching aspect also?

I dont want to just perform. I wouldn't mind eventually working on the college level as a jazz DB instructor..

[Freddels]

Originally Posted by bobbykokinos

Now when you guys say "its not going to be easy doing DB only", do you mean trying to make a living off of just performing, or even the teaching aspect also?

I dont want to just perform. I wouldn't mind eventually working on the college level as a jazz DB instructor..

Wouldn't mind? Well, the problem is that there are a ton of others that wouldn't mind that gig as well. There's not that many positions available at the college level. From talking to other musicians I understand that there is a lot of opportunity to teach at lower levels (elem, middle, high schools).

I tell this story of my awakening when I was at NT many years ago. I had a job working in the dean's office and so I opened his mail every day, etc. Anyway, the school had one position open for a theory teacher. There were something like 5000 applicants. I got to open all the applications. They weeded out the non doctorate candidates and narrowed it down to two. The one that they hired wasn't even human (I mean this in a nice way). He had his undergrad from Penn and his MM and doctorate from Yale. He was one of the leading authorities on Beethovan, Chopin and Schoenberg. He had (for lack of better term) a photographic memory for music. When he came to NT, there were students at Yale that left Yale and transferred to NT just to study with him. He was amazing. He currently teaches at U of Mich.

At that point, I sort of realized what I would be up against if I wanted to teach at a univ level. Now I realize that not everyone out there is like this guy but it sort of shows a point. The competition for college level tenured positions is fierce.

As Chris points out, go with your eyes open. Talk to some advisors about what opportunities are going to be available when you graduate.

Good luck

Fred

[musicman5string]

Originally Posted by bobbykokinos

Now when you guys say "its not going to be easy doing DB only", do you mean trying to make a living off of just performing, or even the teaching aspect also?

I don't know exactly how to answer that question; there really is no one answer. To earn a good living by being a double bass performer ONLY, you've got to a be a mother****er; there's no getting around that. Whether it's jazz, classical, pit bands, whatever, there is no one doing those things full time, earning a living, who is not totally on top of their ****. That means being a top level reader, having a great groove, big ears, knowing a million tunes, being able to adapt in any situation easily, showing up for a gig on time and prepared, and having a good attitude. And if you're doing Jazz, you've gotta be a great soloist as well.
As far as teaching, it's been my experience that the amount of double bass students compared to other instruments is very small, so you're probably not going to have alot of students, unless of course, you are a well known performer on the double bass. (See the irony there?)

Originally Posted by bobbykokinos

I dont want to just perform. I wouldn't mind eventually working on the college level as a jazz DB instructor..

Yeah, sure....but those positions don't just grow on trees man...they go to people who (you guessed it) have a known reputation as great performers. I taught at the college level, but that was Jazz Appreciation and Theory, not bass lessons at a college.
If you WANT to teach (not just "not minding doing it") there are music studios, music schools, music stores, and of course, going out on your own and doing it privately. I've done all these. The first time I went looking for a teaching gig the director literally laughed at me and said to go out and play for 20 years and then we'll talk. That was a bit extreme, but you get the point. Also, the money in these place might suck. Do you do electric bass also? Well then you're opportunites for teaching just tripled. Any guitar or piano? Now you just got a full time job. See my point?

I would also say look around the general area where you live in maybe a 50-80 mile radius. How many clubs are there? Be prepared to drive. I used to drive 100 miles round trip on a Friday night to do a $75 Jazz gig, but this was way before gas was over $3.00 a gallon. Now I cannot justify doing those any more, but you may have to just to keep the money and connections coming.

Mind you, these opinions are coming from someone who is also still trying to figure this music life out, and by no means suggest I know the answers. I do wish you all the luck in the world.

[bobbykokinos]

Thanks for all of the advice everyone.

I understand you really have to be a monster musician to really make the decent bucks. I guess I should've been more clear with my goals though. My ultimate goal would be to teach on the college level. But, I would be willing to "pay my dues" doing what I need to pay the bills. Whether it be teaching a jazz history class or anything else.

I'm going to try to schedule an appointment with a advisor at a couple colleges I'm looking at. This biggest stumbling block right now is finances. I don't know of any loan that would be big enough to cover my personal finances (car payment, rent, utilities) and school tuition. If need be, I would find a part time job and hope that it works out where I can go to school, gig, and work all of the same time. I know many people do this but I also want to make sure that I have enough time to really focus on my classes and not screw around like I did before. During my undergrad, I went to school full time, worked 40hrs a week, and commuted to school. This took a toll on me and my grades. My last semester, I quit my job and took 27 (or 28) credit hours along with playing a few gigs. It was hard but I had the highest GPA I'd ever had in college. So, this leads me to believe if I can do that and really focus without any other distractions, I can do it.

This all has me very worried but I feel as if it's something I have to do. Not only because of my current job situation, but for my own sake personally. Jobs will come and go but playing is the only thing I can picture myself doing for the rest of my life as long as I'm healthy enough to do it.

Any other info or input (especially regarding finances) would be helpful!

[Jeremy Allen]

Bobby,
Starting this fall, I will be the jazz double bass instructor at Indiana University in Bloomington. We have a strong jazz program here, and I think that as an in-state student with a decent level of proficiency (I don't know your playing, but it sounds like you gig a bit) you might find that the financial burden would not be great at all. We are currently making every effort to expand the jazz bass studio, and the one established pro who's coming back to school next year for his master's degree received a very generous scholarship package. We have the money (the school just received a forty million dollar endowment) and we are seeking the players. If you're interested, I invite you to check the school out at www.music.indiana.edu; the office of admissions and financial aid can give you any information you may need.
As someone without a bachelor's degree in music, your main stumbling block here may be the number of graduate review courses you would need to take; the requirements here are ridiculously stringent. Some students find it easier to actually just go back and get a second bachelor's degree instead of struggling with the make-up coursework (which must be completed before the required coursework can begin). But, as I said, we are looking for talented bassists for the jazz program, and we make every effort to help students along. Feel free to email me if you have any questions about the program.
Another important characteristic to consider when looking at schools is the professional scene in the town/city where the school is located, as this will generally have a big impact on the quality and quantity of work you get while in school and after you graduate. Lousiville, for instance, seems to have a much better jazz scene than Indianapolis/Bloomington, and the University of Louisville not coincidentally has an excellent jazz program (including our own Chris Fitzgerald on the faculty). If you're willing to consider paying out-of-state tuition, you should naturally also consider CCM in Cinci, DePaul, Roosevelt, Northern Illinois, etc. in the Chicago area, and Western Michigan, Michigan State (Rodney Whittaker!), and the University of Michigan (Bob Hurst!!).
Good luck!
Jeremy Allen

[bobbykokinos]

Originally Posted by Johono5

Bobby,
Starting this fall, I will be the jazz double bass instructor at Indiana University in Bloomington. We have a strong jazz program here, and I think that as an in-state student with a decent level of proficiency (I don't know your playing, but it sounds like you gig a bit) you might find that the financial burden would not be great at all. We are currently making every effort to expand the jazz bass studio, and the one established pro who's coming back to school next year for his master's degree received a very generous scholarship package.
Jeremy Allen

Wow. I didn't realize I would have someone in the field this close to home in this thread. I'm in Bloomington playing several times a month with a big band down there playing at the Players Pub. As far as gigging, I play with them, the Indy Jazz Orchestra and a few other small groups around Indy..

I will certainly be in contact with you and contact with the admissions department at IU.. I need to get some stuff straight first (job wise) but look forward to contacting you soon!

[Don Higdon]

Kokomo -
If there's some desire, some flame inside you, it's going to keep on smouldering. The sooner you act on it, the sooner you'll find out the truth. I can't know all the factors bearing on you, but I do know this: doing what you love is more important than buying stuff. You'll never be at a better age to recover if it doesn't work out.

[Sam Sherry]

Originally Posted by Johono5

Starting this fall, I will be the jazz double bass instructor at Indiana University in Bloomington.

Hearty congratulations, Jeremy! Whoo hoo!

We have a strong jazz program here

You are a master of understatement. Like, "We sell some coffee here in Seattle."

[Jeremy Allen]

Originally Posted by Sam Sherry

Hearty congratulations, Jeremy! Whoo hoo!

Thanks, Sam! I'm a simple adjunct while I finish the PhD and we'll see what happens after that, but for the time being it's nice to see the school decide that the jazz side of the bass equation is important, too.

I'd like to echo what Don Higdon said; to devote one's self to music is more of a "life decision" than a "career decision" (which is not to say that you can't make a career of it), and being 26 and single with no significant debt makes the decision to follow the music, at least for a bit, a pretty easy one. I knew plenty of people in the same situation in Boston who went to Berklee for a second bachelor's degree after they decided that English or Mechanical Engineering or whatever didn't seem right. There's no better time to try it, especially if you've already got some money saved from the "real job."

[bobbykokinos]

Originally Posted by Johono5

I'd like to echo what Don Higdon said; to devote one's self to music is more of a "life decision" than a "career decision" (which is not to say that you can't make a career of it), and being 26 and single with no significant debt makes the decision to follow the music, at least for a bit, a pretty easy one. I knew plenty of people in the same situation in Boston who went to Berklee for a second bachelor's degree after they decided that English or Mechanical Engineering or whatever didn't seem right. There's no better time to try it, especially if you've already got some money saved from the "real job."

Music has always been one of things I always come back to. Jobs come and go, but I've always stuck with music. Not to sound cliche, but I could never imagine myself without playing. Thats how everyone knows me even though its not my "Day job".

The two decisions I had tossed around in my head where, obviously, 1. going back to college or 2. trying out for the cruiseship thing. While, the cruiseship (if I were to get the gig) would be easy money and great on my resume, I really wouldnt be getting where I need to be, education-wise.

Hopefully, the next several months I'll have time to go back and freshin up on theory. I'm hoping that, since being out of college for 3 years and playing quite a bit, those things that didn't make sense to me then will make sense now since I've been unknowingly applying it towards playing. Needless to say, I'll have to go back and take some courses, but I need to get a head start.

This has always been an idea in my head for several years. But, with this job situation, this has all come to head. Now, I'm ready to devote my time to doing this. I'm still young at 26, but at the age that I need to quit screwing around and getting out of the career situation I'm right now that isnt going anywhere and making a "life plan". My life will always include double bass/electric bass, and music in general. So, I'm hoping the right decision is devote my career choice to music..

Isn't planning ones life out fun?! ughhh.. I really do appreciate all of the info, everyone!

[musicman5string]

Originally Posted by bobbykokinos

The two decisions I had tossed around in my head where, obviously, 1. going back to college or 2. trying out for the cruiseship thing. While, the cruiseship (if I were to get the gig) would be easy money and great on my resume, I really wouldnt be getting where I need to be, education-wise.

I did the cruiseship thing Bobby, and it was my experience that it wasn't as "easy money" as you might think. First of all, those gigs don't pay much. Secondly, what you make, a large chunk will go to eating off the ship. because you will get sick of the food onboard. By the way, ship employees (and make no mistake, you are a ship employee, not a big time musician) do not eat the same food as the passengers. Also, you'll spend money like crazy if you drink, because that's what everyone does because you will get bored out of your mind. You will also have a small room with no window and a roomate that you don't pick. Mine was a pothead who would wake and bake everyday. Musically, the show band I knew was miserable. I was in the Jazz Trio, but that wasn't a barrell of monkeys either, because no one on a cruise ship gives a **** about your trio playing "Stella By Starlight" for the 257th time. Play other tunes, mix it up? LOL. We played every tune you could name at least 3 times, plus originals.

The one cool thing was going to the caribean and seeing all those islands I otherwise we never have seen. Maybe it's worth it for that...but even then I would try to only go for a short time, but the cruise lines usually only offer 6 month stays at the minimum, which is a LONG time when you're out there.

Sorry to sound negative about that, maybe you would have a totally different experience than me. I was glad I did it, but would never do it again. But I think it's good for you to hear from someone who did it and tells it straight.