Jason Marsalis comments on the state of Jazz

Clay_Bass · #1 05-22-2010, 05:32 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN5xy...ure=youtu.be&a

I really don't get it. It seems as though the Marsalis family (most notably Wynton and Branford, and now Jason) just don't seem to understand that people all have quite varying taste and enjoy different stuff be it music, food, whatever.

Let me preface by saying that I don't disagree with everything he says. I do think everyone who is interested in improvised music should check out standards, be-bop etc. But there is a personal level of how much attention that stuff gets.

I'm just sick of this dogmatic bullsh*t from these guys. With a few exceptions of guys like William Parker and Matthew Shipp, I don't hear much of people from that "out" scene putting down swing/be-bop or any music for that matter. But there is a constant stream of criticism thrown at anything that's not 32 bars and AABA from numerous people like the Marsalis family, Kenny Washington, Eric Alexander and the rest of his One For All guys and many more.

It's one thing to not dig some music and a whole 'nother thing to go out in public and put down other pepole's music and drag names through the mud.

Duke said there's only two kinds of music, good and bad. I'd go as far to say there's only stuff I like and stuff I don't. I don't feel that I should ever have to explain why I like or dislike something, and I certainly don't have any interest in making someone feel stupid for their individual preferences. which is funny considering his problem with all the "chromaticism and 30 minute solos"

Square Bear · #2 05-22-2010, 07:51 PM

i can't think of many musicians that don't openly criticize music/artists who offend their sensibilities. do a search these forums for "smooth jazz" if you're curious about this phenomenon.

my beef with that video is that jason marsalis essentially starts with the assumption that his own audience is incapable of making reasonable decisions about what music they will or will not appreciate. he should give non musician jazz enthusiasts some credit...

hdiddy · #3 05-22-2010, 09:14 PM

Funny, IMO, it's like the pot calling the kettle black. Dogmatic adherence to anachronistic musical styles can also be considered as part of the domain of nerdy. It's like musical conservatism - almost like politics. Cept in the music world, it's kinda dumb - esp back in the day I'll bet there were people who said swing wasn't real music.

The real fact of the matter is that 99% of the listeners could give a rats ass about what the Marsali have to say about what is good music and what isn't. Listening to them opine is mostly a waste of time.

Clay_Bass · #4 05-22-2010, 09:15 PM

well I'm really referring to musicians who like marsalis have an established career. When some kid on an internet forum puts somebody down it won't show up in the related videos on you tube for every how many people in the world that search for wynton marsalis each day.

I also think that there might not be anything wrong with confusing a listener. Some musicians think of themselves as entertainers, some as artists and some a bit of both.
A renaissance portrait is fairly easy to grasp in the sense that anyone can look at it and see clearly that it is a beautiful reproduction of a person. Henry Darger is a bit more complex. Even more confusing to me is Trenton Doyle Hancock's work. Artists do sometimes wish to confuse viewers, make them think. People expect to have to think when they view art.

Just varying view points, I don't think there is a right or wrong here, which is what bugs me about these blanket comments made frequently by members of the marsalis family.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hdiddy

The real fact of the matter is that 99% of the listeners could give a rats ass about what the Marsali have to say about what is good music and what isn't. Listening to them opine is mostly a waste of time.

well maybe. established jazz listeners sure. what about potential jazz fans who are introduced to the "spokesman of Jazz" through time magazine, lincoln center, and more importantly what about the young musicians at the various masterclasses frequently given by the marsalis'?

hdiddy · #5 05-22-2010, 09:16 PM

Clay, it just goes to show that it's very true: opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one. Cept the Marsali seem to spew more then others.

It'll be a matter of time before the common jazz listener figure out for themselves that it's all hot air. Sometimes I wonder if it's simply an ego trip as a way or propping onself up by putting down someone else as not being "authentic". Isn't the question of authentic jazz tired by now?

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #6 05-22-2010, 09:50 PM

Cutting off your neighbor's feet doesn't make you any taller, famous or not - it just makes you look insecure about your height.

JtheJazzMan · #7 05-23-2010, 09:05 PM

Just to pour some gunpower on the petrol on the flames, what do you make of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rz2jRHA9fo

Keep in mind I dont know a lot about the state of music education in the states....have to take a holiday sometime.

But damn, I wonder how his students would react to hearing this?

salcott · #8 05-23-2010, 09:53 PM

I guess being a condescending, narrow-minded, pompous ass runs in the family.

hdiddy · #9 05-24-2010, 12:01 AM

Actually, Branford is making a salient point. He's talking about the "Entitlement" generation. They've been coddled far too much and he's just saying that they are full of ****. It makes sense. Hell, we see it here on TB. Kids strolling in thinking that they're hot **** and they don't know nothing. The last two generations (the ones that came after mine) seem to take humilty for granted.

Paul Warburton · #10 05-24-2010, 08:27 AM

I agree, to a point, with Huy. Wynton has been a PITA for years....we all know that, but what these guys say in the clips rings with a lot of truth. I see it almost weekly in younger players and students that come to me.
They seem not to be capable of handling what you have to say about the music after they ask you and pay you for your personal opinion. IMO.
Also, IMO, what we are calling "Jazz Education" in our some of our Colleges is in big trouble and mainly due to the students who demand from the teachers what the teachers should be asking of them. I feel the result is the acual slow death of Jazz as we older players know it.

EDIT: Recently, a young member here posted a clip of his College Jazz group playing a piece I had never heard and that was far over their heads in terms of form and chord structure. They played the head together just fine with their good reading skills. When it came time for the solos I had to turn it off and didn't have the heart to give my critique that was asked for from the poster. I doubt that they were capable of soloing on "Blue Moon" let alone this, to me, unknown complicated, IMO, POS.
I also agree that The Great American Songbook should be the basic tool of all young aspiring Jazz players. If it ain't in The Real Book it doesn't seem to pull any interest from the ones that I've been personally involved with.

sleepytime · #11 05-24-2010, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JtheJazzMan

Just to pour some gunpower on the petrol on the flames, what do you make of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rz2jRHA9fo

Lazy, arrogant and FOS. And if somebody doesn't play along, ostracize him. I'd say he sums it up accurately and succinctly.

Jason Sypher · #12 05-24-2010, 08:58 AM

Well, thank you Jason Marsalis. I mean, yes, there are people who don't give a crap about Gershwin or Harold Arlen or Irvin Berlin. Ok. And there are people playing a type of improvised music that doesn't swing with a lot of notes. Ok. And they build scenes around themselves and people go to the gigs and pay the musicians to play this music. Ok. But who the **** cares? Jason, Jason, Jason. It's a big world out there. People can play whatever they want, you're not going to control that or even influence it. Play your music the way you want to and let others do the same. You can lead a young musician to Arlen but you can't make them love it or hear it or want to devote their life to it. It's important music and will always be important music whether they choose to learn it or not. Plus, I think he sounds like some old codger! Who would listen to that guy? He isn't eloquent or charismatic, he doesn't really make a case for what he's selling. Personally I think he would better spend his time playing the music and doing what he loves and showing by example rather than blogging or whatever about it. He just seems ridiculous to me, no matter that I agree with some of what he is saying. The whole Marsalis thing seems painfully outdated and pathetic. Practice hard, play what's in your heart. End of story.

raymondl3 · #13 05-24-2010, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hdiddy

back in the day I'll bet there were people who said swing wasn't real music.

.

Louis Armstrong called it (Bebop) "Chinese Music."

drurb · #14 05-24-2010, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clay_Bass

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN5xy...ure=youtu.be&a

I really don't get it. It seems as though the Marsalis family (most notably Wynton and Branford, and now Jason) just don't seem to understand that people all have quite varying taste and enjoy different stuff be it music, food, whatever.

Turn the clock back a few decades, substitute "be-bop" for JNI, and it seems like the same message. What a family of arrogant, self-centered, narrow-minded, condescending (but very talented) individuals. BTW, I happen to prefer greatly the music Jason favors but I can do that without trashing other people's preferences or assuming that an audience of non-musicians are fools.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #15 05-24-2010, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

It's a big world out there. People can play whatever they want, you're not going to control that or even influence it. Play your music the way you want to and let others do the same. Practice hard, play what's in your heart. End of story.

Pretty much sums it up.

I know what Branford was saying, and have had a few students like that. The only thing that bothers me about those kids is not what they aren't doing, but what they are doing by studying with me: namely, paying me to tell them things they don't want to hear, and which I quickly tire of saying in light of their not wanting to hear them. In the end, I don't give a rodent's sphincter who plays "jazz" and who doesn't. If you don't want to play "jazz", don't play jazz, and more importantly, stop pretending like you do and get on about the business of playing what you *do* want to play. In the end, that's the lesson these students are paying you to teach them. The downside is that the lesson can be long, protracted, painful, and annoying while in progress. The upside is that, once learned, it will be the most important and most liberating lesson the student could possibly have learned.

superbassman2000 · #16 05-24-2010, 09:14 AM

It's interesting to hear Marsalis complain that we live in a time and place where we get beat down if we don't do what everyone else is doing...at the same time, all I hear him play is old standards or new songs that sound like old standards. Does marsalis really think he is doing anything all that new?
I agree with hdiddy--and i might go a little further to say that the marsalis mentality is killing off the progression of jazz and turning it into a museum piece. I am about as interested in it as I am interested in watching a civil war reenactment.
As far as the music education criticism from the second video, I think the whole system is FOS more than just the player. I was involved in the jazz department in college, and the one thing i learned from them is that they will teach you how to play traditional jazz, because 9 times out of 10, that's the gig that gets you paid. I have yet to get a paying gig in a Sun Ra cover band. When the new students feel so proud that they can transcribe a coltrane solo, play it back on 3 instruments and think they are the greatest ever, it's only because they are able to do what the teacher demands of them, and they "ace" it. To me, the marsalis family has this same mentality--they take the jazz standards and take pride in the fact that they can reproduce it in a very similar manner to how it would have been originally played.
I guess in my mind I interpret the marsalis comments to be based more in jealousy than anything

raymondl3 · #17 05-24-2010, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JtheJazzMan

Just to pour some gunpower on the petrol on the flames, what do you make of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rz2jRHA9fo

Keep in mind I dont know a lot about the state of music education in the states....have to take a holiday sometime.

But damn, I wonder how his students would react to hearing this?

I don't think a person with an attitude like that should be an educator.

Bruce Lindfield · #18 05-24-2010, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

Who would listen to that guy? He isn't eloquent or charismatic, he doesn't really make a case for what he's selling.

Personally I think he would better spend his time playing the music and doing what he loves and showing by example rather than blogging or whatever about it....

I agree - far better to say - these guys are doing some great music and this is why you should listen to them.

As an audience member and Jazz fan, I feel personally insulted by the original clip! So - I have been to see Dave Holland's band play and they are great, it's great music - just because Dave writes some tunes in odd time signatures and they don't always play standards in swing time - in no way diminishes my enjoyment of their gigs or the CDs!!

I don't need somebody like Jason Marsalis to tell me what I should like, or that I will only like it if I can sing along - how patronising!

I am sure that Dave Holland works hard and deserves all his success and I am very happy he has not taken the advice given in that clip and continues to write his own music, that we can all enjoy, if we so choose!

Bruce Lindfield · #19 05-24-2010, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superbassman2000

When the new students feel so proud that they can transcribe a coltrane solo, play it back on 3 instruments and think they are the greatest ever, it's only because they are able to do what the teacher demands of them, and they "ace" it. To me, the marsalis family has this same mentality--they take the jazz standards and take pride in the fact that they can reproduce it in a very similar manner to how it would have been originally played.

This is the interesting point about the nature of Jazz - so we know that the Jazz "greats" were like pioneers creating a new music that hadn't been heard before...?

Is that what Jazz is about - so an artist like Miles constantly re-invented his music....if it loses this pioneering spirit, is it no longer Jazz...?

jmarcus2 · #20 05-24-2010, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superbassman2000

It's interesting to hear Marsalis complain that we live in a time and place where we get beat down if we don't do what everyone else is doing...at the same time, all I hear him play is old standards or new songs that sound like old standards. Does marsalis really think he is doing anything all that new?
I agree with hdiddy--and i might go a little further to say that the marsalis mentality is killing off the progression of jazz and turning it into a museum piece. I am about as interested in it as I am interested in watching a civil war reenactment.
As far as the music education criticism from the second video, I think the whole system is FOS more than just the player. I was involved in the jazz department in college, and the one thing i learned from them is that they will teach you how to play traditional jazz, because 9 times out of 10, that's the gig that gets you paid. I have yet to get a paying gig in a Sun Ra cover band. When the new students feel so proud that they can transcribe a coltrane solo, play it back on 3 instruments and think they are the greatest ever, it's only because they are able to do what the teacher demands of them, and they "ace" it. To me, the marsalis family has this same mentality--they take the jazz standards and take pride in the fact that they can reproduce it in a very similar manner to how it would have been originally played.
I guess in my mind I interpret the marsalis comments to be based more in jealousy than anything

Look. I didn't even watch the clip because I know what the Marsalis (collectively) opinion is. I took issue with a statement Wynton issued years ago in a certain magazine.

I agree that one should open up and learn as much about music as one can- even stuff you might not necessarily like!
I'm more concerned that too many kids are not exposed to live music, and have no concept of learning how to play an instrument!

But I can't stand people who strive to "fossilize" music. Especially Jazz! This is the 'free-est music of all! Supposedly no boundaries. But you hear the "Jazz Police" all the time. (FWIW, the "Blues police" might be worse) Look at what Miles Davis did to churn up the acoustic vs electric debate decades ago. Think typical classical music snob. Same thing.

I'll stop ranting now...