LUSH LIFE: Billy Strayhorn on film

[mrpc]

Originally Posted by JeffKissell

It's too bad this book is out of print. I've read it twice. It is a first rate biography. I might be willing to loan it out, but I'll bet it's in the public library of most big cities.
-J

A quick google search will provide ample opportunities to purchase this book, plenty of new copies still available for anyone who is interested.

I say, "The Duke" had the drive that was necessary to bring GREAT music that he recognized as so, to the world. I don't believe that he did anything that any other musical icon of historical note hasn't done to bring beauty of culture to the world in an elegant way.

The old Igor Stravinsky qoute works here: "No GREAT composer BORROWS, HE STEALS!".

For instance, I doubt that Bela' Bartok made sure that every Hungarian Peasant he "collected" melodies and rhythms from was given full credit on his finished manuscripts. I suppose that he got paid for those.

Or A.P. Carter and all of that music he collected that now is the basis for popular country music today. Doubtful, that any of those mountain folks got a fair shake in all of the royaltiues that are still be generated today.

In the case of Duke, it has been written that he supported alot of people for a long time in order to bring the music to YOU and ME to do with as we please. The Jazz Life never has been a pretty picture from the point of view of making a living.

The mailbox money that is generated by the royalties on the Ellington Songbook and Bartok' scores and Carter song folios must be substantial.

Could it be that Strayhorn's estate would like to establish more of a connection to that kind of cash flow, or is the documentry only about establishing Billy in the history books as a more important figure than he has been so far?

NO, I didn't see this documentry, please tell me why I should.......but if Duke, or any other dead person is gonna get slandered and trashed here, folks gotta come up with solid facts to educate the rest of us! It's only fair, wouldn't you say?

[JeffKissell]

I did not see the documentary so I can't comment on it's content, but from what I know of this history, both men got mostly what they wanted from the arrangement. No one can create art in a vacuum. It seems to me that if Strayhorn had to lead a band, be in the public's eye, so to speak, he would have had a VERY different working environment and VERY different pressure to be successful. I think the arrangement suited him well. What Ellington did in terms of supporting his musicians and providing employment in trying times, can't be underestimated. Many people stop playing/writing/creating because the circumstances of life are too difficult. Ellington's Band allowed many voices to be heard.
-J

[Ed Fuqua]

Other than what I ardy said here, Pookie?

Anyway, as far as "please tell me why I should", the only reason you should do anything is cause you want to. As I always say, insulating yourself from opposing points of view may not be in your long term best interests. But do what you want.

[mrpc]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Other than what I ardy said here, Pookie?

Anyway, as far as "please tell me why I should", the only reason you should do anything is cause you want to. As I always say, insulating yourself from opposing points of view may not be in your long term best interests. But do what you want.

Ok, you keep refering to me as "Pookie", you don't mind if I address you as "Sweet Boy". Fair enough? Nothing personal. Ask me not to , and I won't.

Actually, you've said very little here. From what I've read in this post, you have very little knowlege about the history of the Ellington Band. I suspect that you swallowed a big one while wathching the documentry........is your leg sore from being pulled so hard?

Go and prove me wrong, I'd love to get some more jazz history education. Share your knowlege, prove that YOU aren't insulated from opposing points of view.

[Ed Fuqua]

You can call me anything but late to dinner. How did you morph ED FUQUA into SWEET BOY though? I mean PC to PEE CEE to POO CEE to POOKIE is pretty straight ahead improv on form....

Anyway, what you need to know? I mean are you actually challenging the historical accuracy of what compositions were performed in the LA radio broadcasts by the Ellington band (during the ASCAP ban) and who wrote them? And how many of Mercer's charts stayed in the book and how many of Strays'? Or are you saying that you know for a fact that Don Shirley and Clark Terry are wrong when they say that Strays (who did not receive a composer credit for BLACK BROWN AND BEIGE, you can check the program, he's listed as one of several "arrangers"), to all intents and purposes was the sole composer of that suite? Or that the producers of the shows that said that Ellington personally approached them and talked them out of using Strayhorn as composer for the show are lying? What proof do you have to back that up?

You ask why you ought to check this out, one reason might be to get past getting my version of what I watched and see for yourself. That way you can point out all the outright lies and inconsistencies first hand.

You can get as pissy as you want about this, ultimately they're both two dead guys. And Strayhorn's tunes will ultimatley still be written by Strayhorn, no matter how much Ellington's name is on them.

[Ed Fuqua]

Vis a vis the "open minded" comment:

When I turned this on it was just because I thought it looked interesting. I hadn't read the Hadju biography, I just had the recordings and enjoyed playing the tunes. And, over the last few here, was surprised to find out that a lot of the music I enjoyed playing and thought was Duke's turned out to be Strayhorn's. But no big thang, I kind of had the same picture of "happy collaborators" that everyone else had (and seems to be trying to maintain in the face of any information to the contrary). Well imagine my shock and surprise when, as folks like Mercer and Clark Terry and Don Shirley say in their own words, that it wasn't necessarily so.

So basically you're saying that I am not maintaining an open mind because I allowed my opinion about something to change when presented with an alternate explanation of events and situations. Are you sure you know what "open minded" means?

[ispider6]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Elvis Costello singing a lyric called MY FLAME BURNS BLUE which was the melody to BLOOD COUNT. Nailed that sucker, too...


Anyway, I dug it.

This is slightly off-topic but since you mentioned it... if you haven't checked out Elvis' live cd called "My Flame Burns Blue" you definitely should. Even if you're not a fan of Costello, it's still a great album with big band and strings and some fresh arrangements of some of Elvis' hits and others (including Mingus' "Hora Decubitis").

Oh... and Billy Strayhorn is the man.

[mrpc]

[quote=Ed Fuqua;3833909]V Are you sure you know what "open minded" means?[/QUOTE

But first, most importantly, what do you think it means?

[ctxbass]

It does seem as though Mr. Strayhorn had no contractual obligation to Mr. Ellington and was under no obligation to accept arrangements (no pun intended) which he may or may not have found unsuitable.

Anyway, we all know the difference between a big band and a bull.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by mrpc

But first, most importantly, what do you think it means?

allowed my opinion about something to change when presented with an alternate explanation of events and situations

[Uncletoad]

Considering the whole Harlem in the 20's and 30's thing is oddly interesting to me. I've noticed that this music has been hitting my CD and record player quite a bit over the last couple years. I guess I'm supposed to know more about that. I asked my father about it. He was born in '26 and lived in Brooklyn until the late 40's. His only comment about it was "you had to stay away from there, it was a mess". Not useful. Anybody know of other sources of information about that place and time?

[TSP]

Originally Posted by JeffKissell

It seems to me that if Strayhorn had to lead a band, be in the public's eye, so to speak, he would have had a VERY different working environment and VERY different pressure to be successful. I think the arrangement suited him well. What Ellington did in terms of supporting his musicians and providing employment in trying times, can't be underestimated. Many people stop playing/writing/creating because the circumstances of life are too difficult. Ellington's Band allowed many voices to be heard.

Interestingly, this ties in with another thread on the board at the moment, about Mingus and 'blindfold tests' - there's one at http://www.mingusmingusmingus.com/Mingus/blindfold.html in which one of the records he reviews is a Johnny Hodges record with a lot of the Ellington band big names, but with Strayhorn instead of Ellington. He's not impressed. 'Complementary talents' may be the concept we're looking for - even if Ellington was unfair to Strayhorn, it may well still be that Strayhorn did better with Ellington than he ever would have without.

[BassBot]

I had the same feeling as many of you when I saw this documentary. It did give the viewer the impression that Strayhorn was somehow knowingly used.

At any rate, over time we generally tend to idealize the greats in any genre and seem to overlook any human flaws. I'm sure we all have some bad quality -- overbearing, self-righteous, low confidence -- well, except for Sweet Heart and Pookie. ;-)

My point is that both men were extremely talented in their own ways and were flawed in their own ways.

Duke was a gifted composer. He was writing and recording songs like "East St. Louis Toodle-oo" in 1926, when Strayhorn was all of 11 yrs old.

Strayhorn was obviously a gifted composer. Four years after "Toodle-too," in Pittsburgh, Strayhorn was already composing "Lush Life."

My long-winded point is this: Both men were accomplished independently and came from relative poverty. In order to take their music to an international level they needed one another. Duke needed Strayhorn's arranging skills, attention to detail and discipline. Strayhorn never had the temperament to be a charismatic leader like Duke. But he made up for it with his music, which needed a vehicle to reach us all (i.e. Duke).

Anyway, given the shady backstory of the jazz and blues world (from Robert Johnson to Miles Davis), I think we as jazz players and appreciators should realize the importance of separating the art from the artist.

If anything, this made me go back and realize just how great "A Flower Is a Lonesome Thing" really is.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by BassBot

well, except for Sweet Heart and Pookie. ;-)

That's Sweet BOY, BONMOT.

[mrpc]

Originally Posted by BassBot

I had the same feeling as many of you when I saw this documentary. It did give the viewer the impression that Strayhorn was somehow knowingly used.

At any rate, over time we generally tend to idealize the greats in any genre and seem to overlook any human flaws. I'm sure we all have some bad quality -- overbearing, self-righteous, low confidence -- well, except for Sweet Heart and Pookie. ;-)

My point is that both men were extremely talented in their own ways and were flawed in their own ways.

Duke was a gifted composer. He was writing and recording songs like "East St. Louis Toodle-oo" in 1926, when Strayhorn was all of 11 yrs old.

Strayhorn was obviously a gifted composer. Four years after "Toodle-too," in Pittsburgh, Strayhorn was already composing "Lush Life."

My long-winded point is this: Both men were accomplished independently and came from relative poverty. In order to take their music to an international level they needed one another. Duke needed Strayhorn's arranging skills, attention to detail and discipline. Strayhorn never had the temperament to be a charismatic leader like Duke. But he made up for it with his music, which needed a vehicle to reach us all (i.e. Duke).

Anyway, given the shady backstory of the jazz and blues world (from Robert Johnson to Miles Davis), I think we as jazz players and appreciators should realize the importance of separating the art from the artist.

If anything, this made me go back and realize just how great "A Flower Is a Lonesome Thing" really is.

Good summary!

[mrpc]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

allowed my opinion about something to change when presented with an alternate explanation of events and situations

That's reasonable, nice hear a summary of how you think your mind works!

[JeffKissell]

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

Considering the whole Harlem in the 20's and 30's thing is oddly interesting to me. I've noticed that this music has been hitting my CD and record player quite a bit over the last couple years. I guess I'm supposed to know more about that. I asked my father about it. He was born in '26 and lived in Brooklyn until the late 40's. His only comment about it was "you had to stay away from there, it was a mess". Not useful. Anybody know of other sources of information about that place and time?

In a musical sense or a history of NYC sense, or both?
I started with "The History of Jazz" by Ted Gioia. It's a little dry, but lots of resources. A decent suggested listening index also.
-J

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by JeffKissell

In a musical sense or a history of NYC sense, or both?
I started with "The History of Jazz" by Ted Gioia. It's a little dry, but lots of resources. A decent suggested listening index also.
-J

Both.

I'll look at that.

[mrpc]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Are you sure you know what "open minded" means?

Two things among many more that come to front for me whenever being asked to define an open mind:

1)The God's have feet of clay.

2)Divide and conquer. A tactic very effective in acumulating power for the agenda of ego gratifacation.

That's all Im gonna say, and I wouldn't have said it unless I had been asked.