Music as high art versus music as ambient energy (DB forum thread)

[Chris Fitzgerald]

A recent thread to a turn to this subject, and on replying I found that I've been thinking of this subject a lot. I've played a lot of concerts, and I've played a lot of ambient "room energy" gigs. Lately, I find that I have been especially enjoying the gigs where the band is part of the vibe and "energy life force" of the room (not talking about casuals here, but club dates where the music is featured but not as a "silent listening room" vibe). In particular, the Nachbar gig here in town has consistently provided me with the most satisfying musical outlet I've had in recent times. I like giving energy to the room in music and getting it back not in reverent silence and applause (although the latter certainly happens and is appreciated), but rather in the vibrancy of the room itself.

I've always wondered if this is the vibe that the early jazz clubs cultivated, and if it isn't perhaps the natural habitat for this music. Most of the best musicians I play with don't seem to care how many people are giving the music their full attention as long as the music is happening and the room feels good. I've got more to add to this at some point, but wanted to get the ball rolling on this subject. Thoughts?

[Mike Goodbar]

Right or wrong, I know that I play differently when in a club as opposed to a concert situation. In a club, where I don't know whether folks are listening, and where I know those who are may not be "discriminating" listeners, I tend to take more chances, experiment more. If what I attempt fails, no one is going to ask for their money back or anything.

In a concert situation, I tend to play it a little safer and intently try not to step on my d*ck too much, relying more on tried and true licks and riffs. There's a little bit of inhibition because of the perception of higher expectations from the audience.

I know there's a bit of irony there, as I'm robbing the audience a little of what we know to be the true jazz "experience," but that's where I'm at.

[Marc Piane]

Great question Prof Hillwilliam.

I prefer to play jazz in clubs. I think jazz is essentially chamber music.

I dislike playing in 'concert' settings. I think the sound isn't right and neither is the vibe.

I like the idea of a communal energy.

In a concert setting everyone is mostly sitting on their hands waiting for you to produce so they can justify spending the money on the ticket. There is little give and mostly take on the audience's part.

In a club setting you might be helping someone celebrate a birthday, be the soundtrack for someone's romantic evening, or drawing someone's complete attention. That point where the chatter falls silent and everyone looks at the band to see what's happening is magical.

To go off of Mike's point. I think club crowds are more supportive and in a way more discerning. Concert audiences want a nice evening of music. Club audiences want MAGIC. If that means a **** up then so be it but playing it safe translates as lame in the club.

[Treyzer]

Interesting idea Chris. My POV is that the venue shouldn't matter. I've been blessed to play in all sorts of venues from very large to very, very small. Big stages and concert situations take some getting used to, but great jazz can be played in large settings. Go "You Tube" some Chick Corea, Christian McBride, Keith Jarret (to name but a few) or many other contemporary jazz artists that play large jazz festivals and concert halls. I'm pretty sure they're taking chances, able to project their ideas and sounds, playing at a very high level and connecting with their audiences.

Based on my own experience of playing these types of venues, you typically can only see actual faces in the first couple of rows. At some point playing in large concert settings stops being overwhelming. The experience becomes what you are used to and you become as comfortable as when you're doing your thing in a small club environment.

On the other hand, playing at a good sounding club that features jazz can be a great musical experience for all concerned. It is more intimate, the musicians are typically set up very close to one another, the music doesn't have to rely on a great amount of sound reinforcement and you have more intimate and/or direct contact with the audience.

At least theoretically, it shouldn't matter where you're playing. Regardless if your playing for a very small crowd or 50,000 people, every chance you get to play is an opportunity to express yourself, work on your craft and share your musical talent, at least this is what was hammered into my head at a very early age by musicians who were far better and more experienced than me at the time.

The only time I've ever felt a bit intimidated or inhibited was when I was playing in a small club that was a big musicians hang out. In those places, you knew there were at least 10 bass players in the room and you pretty much had to stand and deliver.

For me, the greatest thing about playing jazz is that it is always different. Play the same tune on different nights and if you're playing with good cats, different things will happen. It will never be the same regardless of who the audience is or what the venue is. A good audience can be great but it really shouldn't matter; same with whatever venue you are playing. I think this question comes down to what type of playing situation we are most used to. Typically, that becomes what we are most comfortable with.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Mike - I agree about the taking chances part, although I'm working on lessening that dichotomy. The relative safety of different modes of playing is a whole can of worms unto itself. I often ask myself, how "safe" am I if I don't go for anything, or anything new? It's almost like there's a dial on my brain somewhere that ranges from "play, but just don't **** anything up" to "damn the torpedoes and go for it!". I find that all of my best playing tends to happen when that dial is pegged in the clockwise direction.

In concert settings, it also depends on who the players are because that affects my relation to the band. If I'm backing a touring artist, often he/she doesn't really want me to "go for it" if anything I might be "going for" is even potentially outside the scope of what they want to project. Trying to figure out what the parameters of an artist's vision for their show adds another level of complexity to the formula. OTOH, if it's a concert setting with people I play with often and know well, it's a lot easier to go for broke without worrying about it.

In a club, especially when I understand the parameters of the gig well, it seems a lot easier to go full out and be creative, since there are two important factors at play:

1) It's already kind of loud in there, and glitch type mistakes won't really hurt much;

2) Hearing the band go for it is kind of what people want from the band in that setting; it's more casual, and more forgiving.

I remember years ago being urged to go for more stuff by one of the guys I play with a lot. He actually told me that he could tell how many chances I was taking by how in tune I was. If I was "too in tune", I wasn't taking enough chances. At the time, I thought he was asking for trouble, but it turns out he was right as usual, even in a concert setting. Where I do tend to play it safe (especially regarding bass solos) a little bit is in the studio, especially when the whole cut up to the bass solo was slamming. But that's a subject for another thread....

[David Kaczorowski]

I like playing clubs too. One time a colleague and I were listening back to a recording we made in a club. At one particularly bad-ass section my buddy, sitting there listening says, "Yeah a, I'll have a cheeseburger, medium, and a Heineken."

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by David Kaczorowski

I like playing clubs too. One time a colleague and I were listening back to a recording we made in a club. At one particularly bad-ass section my buddy, sitting there listening says, "Yeah a, I'll have a cheeseburger, medium, and a Heineken."

At least he didn't say "that ****ing bass player sucks ass.".

The usual thing I'd hear on audience recordings.

[IbanezSGfan]

I like this idea. I find that more times than not in concert situations I have to get in my head and go over the pieces time and time again and in the end, (based on how much justice you did the piece) there's a real sense of accomplishment, alot more with larger venues though just from getting the audience's response and feedback after the show. It's a really good feeling to me although it can be exhausting, that's part of the experience.

On the note of like club settings and "background gigs" i kind of see those as the situation of the friend saying, "hey bro let's go jam or hang out or whatever." alot more spontaneous. Doesn't seem like as much crowd interaction but you and the band really are part of the 'energy' I feel like the band is just as much of the party as the bar/decorations/special guests, whatever. But it does have its own feel of involvement even though you may only be acknowledged by a handful of people while your tearing down

Either way, both should be experienced through the eye of the bassholder (no pun intended) But it does seem like the club scene or background gig scene leaves alot more room for improvisation which can tighten the band and lead to new ideas. But the concert session really leads to an overall sense of connection from knowing what each band member needs to play at what point and so on. COOL idea though, thanks for the post, I hadn't thought about it that much before.