My night at the symphony

[David Kaczorowski]

PK:

"Axe": slang term meaning instrument, not bass specific.

String Bass is legit. Though plenty of other instruments have strings, the String family is commonly accepted as violin, viola, violoncello, string bass doublebass etc. When the conductor calls for strings, the basses are included. They are the bass voice of the String Instrument Family. The term may also found on scores.

On "realbass" and "toybass": I learned the terms from long time masters who play both. As I perform on both, and am aware of their dissimilarity, the work that goes into playing the doublebass, and the relative ease of playing the bass guitar, I feel I have a right to carry on the tradition. No one should feel belittled, no one ever said the toybass isn't a valid instrument.

If calling the doublebass "upright bass" because of its playing position in relation to the playing position of bass guitar is valid, then I suppose those who play bass guitar are so egocentric that they should name all instruments in regard to playing position as it relates to bass guitar. And by that same token those who play the realbass may be of equal egocentricity in calling the bass guitar "toybass".

[Edited by David Kaczorowski on 01-29-2001 at 12:58 PM]

[Don Higdon]

"egocentric"....? Duh, anybody got tabs for that?

[David Kaczorowski]

Originally posted by Ed Fuqua
CRACKHOUSEKEY - does it stand to reason that the person who doesn't feel slighted when you refer to their instrument as a "toybass" would also not understand why you should feel slighted if they ever referred to you as "childish"?

Dat be me, Ed, you calls 'em likes you sees 'em and you sees good. But between you and me, I just think it's funny. Folks take me too seriously sometimes.

The first time I heard "Fender bass" was when an old guy was talking to me about a gig and he asked if I played fender bass. At the time, I thought he said slender bass, as in skinny bass.

[Don Higdon]

No reaction to my Jimmy Rowles story on the first page?

[pkr2]

O.K., I 'fess up. I was splitting hairs. The two proper descriptions will forever be "double bass" and "left hand by left ear while scratching belly."

Now back to the meat and 'taters.

Ed, I assumed that just learning the scales and modes was only one part of a bigger picture. I now know the scales but I want to apply my new knowledge. As I said earlier, I've known the scales for years but didn't realize it. I have been playing triplets and arpeggios for a long time also but didn't even know that they had a name. I can play a walking bass line just fine but the people that I've been playing with all of my life don't know a walking line from a walking catfish.

If I can hear it(I don't mean audibly), I mean if I can hear the chord progression I can usually play it. I have come up with my own mental terminology for most of the movements over the neck, such as a box pattern, a chime, straight time, waltz time , phrase emphasis and various other homebrew terminology. Mostly terms that only make sense to me. I am a reasonably good mechanic but I'm illiterate.

Good suggestion about focus but if I can't understand what I'm looking at it becomes blurry.

What I want to accomplish is the ability to take the sound from the page and be able to hear the song. Again, not audibly, of course, but at the very least useably, and then be able to play the song. I want to be able to take the song from my head and put it to paper and look at it later and be able to play the song.

No, I have no desire to play at the classical level but if a classical musician is speaking, I want to be able to understand what he is talking about within reason.

I would love to be able to teach when I can no longer play adequately but I'm aware that I'll probably never be that proficent but I can dream, can't I?

Can I reach that level without being able to read? That is not a rhetorical question.

The one thing that I am not looking for is a quick fix. Shortcuts in the past are what brought me to this pickle to start with.

Well now that I've probably gotten everyone as confused as I am myself, I look forward to everyones comments.

Thanks, guys, you all are very much appreciated.

Don, The "horizontal geetar" picker in my band knows a lot of tab. I'll ask him if he has "Egocentricity". LMAO

Punkernot

[Bruce Lindfield]

This thread has "mutated" in interesting ways, but never actually addressed the original topic, which is something that I have thought about many times.

I have been to many "symphonic" or orchestral concerts at the Proms in the Albert Hall and other London venues with the great London Symphony Orchestras and been inspired by the music of Mahler, Bruckner, Messiaen amongst others. But no matter how intense these musical experiences have been, I have never thought that I would like to be an orchestral bassist. I have the utmost respect and admiration for these people, but to me, orchestral pieces are about the whole and a large number of people subsuming their individuality to create a work of art defined by the composer and conductor.

My own interest in music is in creating something and to me that means being somehow more involved in the process of creation - adding something that is my own - even if it isn't up to the standard of what has been written previously. And I fully accept that I could never write a bass line as fulfilling as Beethoven or whoever!!

But if I'm not doing "my own thing" I tend to lose interest and I just don't think I would ever have the discipline to play exactly the bassline as written every time - I also find that no matter how much I like an orchestral piece, I don't always find the bass lines that interesting, but rather that they are the foundation of the orchestra and don't make much sense as a "tune" in their own right without the rest of the strings.

I just imagine that the sort of people who make good orchestral bassists are not like me at all and that while I envy the fact that they are at the centre of some of the most amazing music, I could never actually be like that no matter how long I studied or trained.

[David Kaczorowski]

Bruce, I used to feel similarly. However, a few years ago I began studying orchestral music and Bach Cello Suite #3 out of a sense of how it might help my development. At around the same time I also began playing in an orchestra. I admit, it can be boring at times. Or, when preparing to perform The Planets, all the time. But I also discovered that there is something very satisfying in playing notes on a page as a composer conceived them and tradition has brought down. It's almost Zen-like, if you can pardon my corniness; eight basses playing some difficult **** in unison. And not only making the notes, but putting something of yourself into the music. In a sense, you sacrifice your Self to the music. I love playing the Bach,
and after having spent countless hours preparing a movement, it's part of me. I can play three movements by memory and they're mine. My point is that a relationship with the music develops and reaches a point where the difference between whether Bach or Beethoven wrote it, or it's a jazz tune I improvise on is small.

The additional benefit of studying classical literature is that you'll gain a greater understanding and appreciation of the Tradition of the Bass, and increase your chops tenfold.

[Don Higdon]

Bruce - I'll prbably deal with this in bites.
I maintain there are more similarities than dissimilarities between what you do and playing classical.
I don't accept that a classical player is not creating just because the notes are written on a page. It's akin to saying an actor is not creating because the words have already been written. Were the premise true, there'd be no need for more than one recording of any piece of music.

I don't see the difference between playing orchestra bass lines that "don't make much sense as a 'tune' in their own right and playing in any section of a band like Basie, Ellington, et al. That's part of ensemble playing.

Ensemble is ensemble, whether it's a duo, trio, or 70+. You collaborate, especially as the bassist, for the sound of the group. The worst gigs are the 'star' and three guys.

At a recording session, the leader told the group on no uncertain terms to "stay within the scales" that he passed around. The album was Kind Of Blue.

Now, I'm off to orchestra rehearsal.

[Edited by Don Higdon on 01-30-2001 at 03:48 PM]

[arto alho]

Don, You continue to be The Man.
I jump in kind of late, been kind of busy lately. Years ago I kind of thought that I´d contribute more to the music when I kind of did lots of "my own stuff". The more I played, learned, listened and loved jazz, I began to kind of understand that it was an easy way to end up mixing the harmony or time and f*****g up my fellow players´ solos.
These days I kind of enjoy when someone writes something special for me to play and also enjoy being a part of an ensemble. I agree with Don 100 % that it has no significance if it´s a trio or 70+.

[Don Higdon]

Thanks Arto. Isn't it midight where you are? Don't you have to work tomorrow?

DAVID K: Please clam up about having to play The Planets. What do you think we're playing tonight?
Technical question: I'm trying to decide what to use for the col legno in Mars. My toilet plunger handle seems a bit heavy, since the passage is marked piano, so I'm considering a strip of moulding I ripped down when we redid the kitchen. Does it make any difference if it's painted?

[David Kaczorowski]

Originally posted by Don Higdon
DAVID K: Please clam up about having to play The Planets. What do you think we're playing tonight?
Technical question: I'm trying to decide what to use for the col legno in Mars. My toilet plunger handle seems a bit heavy, since the passage is marked piano, so I'm considering a strip of moulding I ripped down when we redid the kitchen. Does it make any difference if it's painted?

That's too bad, last night I was rehearsing the Egmont Overture and Tod und Verklarung.

I'll confess that last season when we did The Planets I kinda faked the col legno. I figured with seven other basses I wouldn't be missed. For those few measures I didn't feel like going through the trouble of finding a wood alternative to my bow. Despite it being too heavy, a toilet plunger would certainly make your feelings about the piece known. Could you convince the entire section to use toilets plungers?

I was practicing the Allemande from Bach cello suite #3 this morning. I've only been working on it for a few days now. At one point I thought of this thread and an analogy for playing music written by others. It's a lot like getting to know a woman. In the beginning you gotta take it slow, you slowly get to know her, learning her likes and dislikes, what makes her laugh, where she likes to be tickled, her moods, etc., then eventually you're gettin' it on. But just because you know what she likes and what to expect back doesn't make gettin' it on any less fun.

[jazzbo]

Bruce, my original post was really intended to share my appreciation of the performance, the music, the musicians. My desire to learn STRING BASS was simply reinforced by seeing it, and hearing it in it's piece in that music. I wasn't necessarily saying that it inspired me to learn classical, although it did. For me, when I hear something like that, a full orchestra, and the STRING BASS'S role in that music, it is definitely inspiring, a wonderful thing to be a part of.

Now what do you call that instrument? Standup bass?

[arto alho]

coupla times I used the term "bull fiddle" after my name in the gig poster. Nobody noticed anything....anyhow it´s funny to follow this name discussion, ´cause we mostly use one name in our language and that´s "kontrabasso". Stolen from Italian of course, but even people who don´t know anything about music can recognise it. Anyhow, we DO have terms
"pystybasso" and "läskibasso" , the former of which can be translated to upright bass and the latter is unprintable. I hate them as much as their equivalents in English.

R2D2

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by Don Higdon
Bruce - I'll prbably deal with this in bites.
I maintain there are more similarities than dissimilarities between what you do and playing classical.
I don't accept that a classical player is not creating just because the notes are written on a page. It's akin to saying an actor is not creating because the words have already been written. Were the premise true, there'd be no need for more than one recording of any piece of music.

I don't see the difference between playing orchestra bass lines that "don't make much sense as a 'tune' in their own right and playing in any section of a band like Basie, Ellington, et al. That's part of ensemble playing.

Ensemble is ensemble, whether it's a duo, trio, or 70+. You collaborate, especially as the bassist, for the sound of the group. The worst gigs are the 'star' and three guys.

At a recording session, the leader told the group on no uncertain terms to "stay within the scales" that he passed around. The album was Kind Of Blue.

Now, I'm off to orchestra rehearsal.

]

Well I was just putting my own "personal" perspective on this and I never meant to imply that this would apply to anyone else. I fully accept that I may well not have the right temperament to be a musician (full stop) and have never been a full-time player.

I suppose what I was saying is that symphonic concerts inspire me more to be a composer than a player. Also, whenever I see a great Jazz bass player I often think wow that's great, but he's put so much effort into that and more than 2/3 of the audience didn't even stop their conversation during the bass solo! I guess I'm just saying that I'm very lazy.

I did get a record deal in the 80s and I spent most of my musical "prime", writing and recording "original" music (pop to you probably )that I had written, using sequencers, synths, drum machines etc. Maximum reward for minimum effort - that's how I like it! However, when I didn't earn enough to make a career out of it, I gradually came to the conclusion, that if I was just doing music for "fun" then I would rather be "getting out" and playing with other people - sort of like an extended social circle.

So my perspective, is that I only do what's "fun" to me and I tend to try to avoid the "hard work" parts! I am interested in learning however and am at the point in my life where I feel the need to fill in the gaps. So a few years ago I went to a "Science" summerschool at my local University, about Cosmology, Quantum Physics etc. out of interest. I discovered that they also did Jazz courses and signed up for these.

I am doing all this out of a sense of interest and as "realaxation" from my full-time job, so my point of view is very different from those of you who take this more seriously.

Having said that, when I retire I intend to start studying seriously and will attempt to write my own symphonies - well one would be nice! I take my inspiration from the British Composer - Havergal Brian, who lived and wrote in my home town and composed more than 20 symphonies after he was 70 years old. I have a lot of these on CDs and it is some of my favourite orchestral music.

[Bruce Lindfield]

PS - I love the Planets! I have a full-size facsimile of Holst's original score! Although I love some of the recordings - like Charles Dutoit and the Montreal Symphony - I've never heard a "convincing" performance in the concert hall in the UK - I should have known!!

[David Kaczorowski]

If cats are calling the doublebass, "upright bass," because of it's verticallness, couldn't it just as easily be called ,"the downright bass." I think "downright bass" has nice ring and better suits the nature of the beast.

"Yeah, I play downright bass." Or the band leader calls out, "Gimme more o' dat downright bass." That works pretty well.