Outdoor gig in -16°C dergee cold

[Don Higdon]

Damon, just when I think I know where you are, I find that I don't.
Let's say you have two basses, one worth X and one worth 4X.
Which do you use on the gig in question?

[Damon Rondeau]

Wood expands and contracts with its moisture content.

My experience with wood items and music gear is real experience. No speculation here. Decades of moving stuff around in the coldest weather. Stored in cold vans, the whole bit. My DB is the item I'm least familiar with in cold conditions, but why would a DB be a whole lot different than, for example, a fine old guitar or mandolin? No cold weather issues with those instruments.

Every time an instrument is shipped by air it gets extremely cold. (Or by truck in the winter in high latitude locations.) Anyone care to speak about the cold weather damage from those sources?

Jake has already contributed to this thread. OK, he's in Crescent Beach, which is hardly Flin Flon, but he's a Canadian luthier who I'm sure has seen plenty of instruments from the cold side of the Rockies. It gets damn cold in Alberta, too. He didn't say much about the horrible things that will happen to your bass in cold weather.

[Damon Rondeau]

Originally Posted by Don Higdon

Damon, just when I think I know where you are, I find that I don't.
Let's say you have two basses, one worth X and one worth 4X.
Which do you use on the gig in question?

Obviously you take the X axe. We're cold up here, we're not stupid Don.

People without *real* cold weather experience have a lot of misconceptions about what it's really like. That's where I'm coming from here.

[Don Higdon]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

Every time an instrument is shipped by air it gets extremely cold. Anyone care to speak about the cold weather damage from those sources.

My Jacquet was shipped by air from Arizona to MacArthur airport on Long Island, NY in December. It lay overnight in the cargo barn. When I got it home, it didn't sound at all like its price. No damage, just weak sound with little character. I brought it to a concert my choir was doing. At the end, I asked the bassist (Darla Coolman, Todd's wife) to play it. After 15 minutes, it sounded much better. It continued to improve for each of the next 5 days, by which time it sounded fabulous.
I agree with your observations about wood and cold. A noted antique dealer in Maine keeps $50,000 items in an unheated barn with no fear. However, furniture is not under the tensions that a DB is, and I feel why risk it? Coupled with my experience with the sound, the expensive bass stays home.

[Damon Rondeau]

Originally Posted by Don Higdon

My Jacquet was shipped by air from Arizona to MacArthur airport on Long Island, NY in December. It lay overnight in the cargo barn. When I got it home, it didn't sound at all like its price. No damage, just weak sound with little character. I brought it to a concert my choir was doing. At the end, I asked the bassist (Darla Coolman, Todd's wife) to play it. After 15 minutes, it sounded much better. It continued to improve for each of the next 5 days, by which time it sounded fabulous.
I agree with your observations about wood and cold. A noted antique dealer in Maine keeps $50,000 items in an unheated barn with no fear. However, furniture is not under the tensions that a DB is, and I feel why risk it? Coupled with my experience with the sound, the expensive bass stays home.

Very interesting about the Jacquet.

I also feel the "why risk it" answer is the only sensible one. If it makes you nervous, why do it? There is not a lot of experience playing fine wooden instruments outdoors in quite cold weather -- and thus not a lot of data for us to work with here -- for a good reason. And I don't believe the reason is because of the damage the cold will do to the instruments (or the players for that matter.) Rather I think it's just a crazy thing to do and therefore most people don't do it. Who wants to sit and play or listen and freeze their butt off? If you're not actively moving in cold weather, you're getting cold. Players, listeners -- anyone. The craziest one in my opinion is the horn player that puts a frigid mouthpiece to his lips. That one could really hurt, especially if you freak out and pull away...

[Violen]

Damon, thank you for your perspective! I think the OP should do the gig. Whats the worst that can happen?

[Damon Rondeau]

Drummers have got it worst in the cold weather, I think. Those plastic sleeves they put around their trap drums (ain't no way I'm remembering what they call those things) -- those things often will shatter in even moderately cold weather. A combination, methinks, of 1) plastic often being a poor cold weather performer; and, 2) the plastic sleeve shrinking across its diameter more than the drum might be -- result is a shattered sleeve.

[Damon Rondeau]

Originally Posted by drurb

What happens to a relatively thin piece of wood under hundreds of pounds of pressure and affixed with hide glue when it's exposed to such temperatures and then brought back to room temperature? How does hide glue, itself, react? Even in the coldest of climates, DBs are almost always indoors. At what temperature do you keep your DB when you are travelling with it in the cold climate?

drurb, I read things out of sequence here. I didn't see this post (nor a couple others) until just now. Sorry for not addressing the questions -- must have seemed rude on my part.

I don't really ever leave my bass anywhere unattended and, despite all I've gone on about here, we Canadians are usually to be found inside in the wintertime, where it's warm. That's not a temperature thing, that's a I-don't-want-my-bass-stolen thing. It would be completely common, though -- certainly not unheard of -- for musicians of all kinds in these parts to leave an instrument in their car overnight, especially if we're talking about a garage. If it's an unheated space -- as, say,a garage -- then the instrument gets pretty much as cold as the outdoor ambient temp. (Wind is only a short-term factor related to how fast something cools off. In the long run that unattached garage is as cold inside as it is outside.) So, in the wintertime Canadian prairies -- pretty low population, true, but a hell of a lot of music has gone down in the last couple of hundred years or so -- you're looking at temps of -10C or lower as the rule, not the exception. -20 to -30 is very, very common. You're going to see -35C every winter -- in a cold winter it can be that temp or lower for a couple of unlucky weeks on end.

I used to play retirement homes and met old cats who played in the big old railway hotels -- those old hotel orchestras had string sections and the whole shot. Just that part of the culture goes back to the 20's, the 30's. There has been quite a lot of music played -- at all levels -- in these parts. And amidst all that context, of it being cold as hell but still a lot of musical activity going on despite the d*mn cold, what I'm saying is we don't really have a group experience of cold weather trouble with *common* stringed instrument. Exceptional instruments are special by definition and you're not exactly babying your axe doing gigs outside at -16C -- no question about that.

Now, what we really have trouble with is the forced air gas heating we use in our houses. It's like living in a large clothes dryer. *That* will screw your bass up!

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

Wood expands and contracts with its moisture content.

My experience with wood items and music gear is real experience. No speculation here. Decades of moving stuff around in the coldest weather. Stored in cold vans, the whole bit. My DB is the item I'm least familiar with in cold conditions, but why would a DB be a whole lot different than, for example, a fine old guitar or mandolin? No cold weather issues with those instruments.

Every time an instrument is shipped by air it gets extremely cold. (Or by truck in the winter in high latitude locations.) Anyone care to speak about the cold weather damage from those sources?

Jake has already contributed to this thread. OK, he's in Crescent Beach, which is hardly Flin Flon, but he's a Canadian luthier who I'm sure has seen plenty of instruments from the cold side of the Rockies. It gets damn cold in Alberta, too. He didn't say much about the horrible things that will happen to your bass in cold weather.

I'm pretty sure that wood expands and contracts with temperature as well as humidity.

A DB is quite different than an old guitar or mandolin. The forces do not scale linearly and that's one of the things that makes a DB susceptible to damage. So, the history of folks leaving instruments in cars overnight may not apply unless they really were DBs. That's not just a technicality. The forces bearing down on the top of a DB relative to the thickness of that top are generally far greater than that of most other stringed instruments.

FWIW, Jake didn't seem to keen on having a bass in -16C.

[Damon Rondeau]

Originally Posted by drurb

Neither you nor anyone else has spoken about any experience with a DB being damaged by very cold temperatures. That seems to be because no one here has done it or knows anyone who has! No wonder you don't have any reports. I also know of no history of a DB being damaged by being at ground-zero during a nuclear blast.

Yes, well you address the question from a theoretical perspective, but as you can see with careful cunning I have clothed my argument in the attire of cultural history and the lore of the music trade in these parts. Do all the mechanics and materials research you want. My point is that, if *any* people should know of such troubles, *we* would. On the Canadian prairies, that is. (Few swimming pools, fewer movie stars.) I like to think I'm pretty familiar with that field in these parts and I'm saying there ain't no signal I'm aware of...

And again, I believe there's no signal here not because of the risk to the instruments, but because it's batshit crazy to play bowed strings and horns and stuff in weather too much below zero C. Consequently it isn't done.

As for me and my own bass, your specific question doc, I doubt my bass has put in more than a couple of hours lifetime in wild unheated weather. I have not actually *been* to the North Pole, either, but believe me, I'm prepared. I pretty much know exactly what to expect.

[Damon Rondeau]

Originally Posted by drurb

I'm pretty sure that wood expands and contracts with temperature as well as humidity.

It's been decades since I've looked at one of the bibles but I'm thinking old Hoadley could probably shed some light on this.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

...And again, I believe there's no signal here not because of the risk to the instruments, but because it's batshit crazy to play bowed strings and horns and stuff in weather too much below zero C. Consequently it isn't done.

On that we certainly agree! Very little to go on because it just isn't done. Still, it's interesting to wonder about and discuss what would be expected. I was intrigued when a luthier once explained to me how thick the top of a double bass would be if it were scaled up from a violin. He impressed upon me how great the forces are on the relatively thin top. It was and is my understanding, perhaps it's an incorrect one, that that situation magnifies the risk of extreme temperatures and humidity.

[Damon Rondeau]

I'm going to take a wild burro guess and suppose it's the actual water content of the wood that's the culprit here. Because wood is basically cellulose fibres and lignin and whatever sappish contents are present and the amount of water it's got in it. So it's the water that freezes, right? And that freezing is going to happen quickly, especially at very cold temps -- more quickly than any moisture equilibrium process that's going on. And water expands when it freezes -- that's an easy way to ruin your house plumbing. So: how much water, leading to how much expansion? I doubt it's anything close to the movement induced in wood by variable moisture content.

[jnel]

...and the MC finishes her remarks with "and we all know that it's not over til, uh.. there's an interruption with
granpa yelling out- "hey fat lady, over here"



behave granpa!



Brian-back to your OP- "am i crazy" yes! BATTY BAT BATSHIT CRAZY

do you have any more questions?

[jnel]

goin up to Canader get some batshit in my shoes
goin up to Canader get some batshit in my shoes

i'm a comin fat mama, don't ya sing til i get there
I'm a comin fat mama, don't ya sing til i get there

I got the ba a at ba a at batshit blues

[ChrisPbass]

Who would actually be there to listen? Wouldn't everyone would be wearing ear muffs?

[ubassman]

The simple answer is NO!!! .... unless you don't mind your bass potentially falling to bits!. The problem is one of humidity. Winter outdoors means that the air is wet and the wood in a double bass absorbs moisture very quickly especially if its been nicely dried out in centrally heated indoor environment.

I have a Stentor Student ll which costs about £1200 new and I use this for outdoor gigs. It has developed a long crack to the left of the Left -f- hole ( so away from the bass bar and not structural - just weather related). The top is also coming away in part with the lower bout in this area as theres been quite a lot of expansion and contraction as the wood swells up when its wet and then shrinks again when it dried out = movement !!. Its been baked in the hot south facing sun in the summer and in the lead up to Christmas was played in -6C (don't know what that is in Fahrenheit ..but its cold).

From experience if you value your bass try and keep the humidity constant and that means avoid playing outdoors !

[jnel]

If you're traveling in the North Country Fair
where the wind hits heavy on the border line
please say hello to a bass which once was fine
now all i got is that fat woman of mine


oh, if i had of just said no
Clarence, help me Clarence, i want my bass to live...

[charliefreak]

I don't know anything about cold weather on instruments. My first concern tho would be rapid detuning. I was under the impression that that's why yo-yo Ma played a decoy for the presidentional inaugerration.

On a side note- At the superbowl parties here in Indy, everything was heated. For a week last winter you could walk around downtown Indy in a t-shirt and jeans. Can't be good for ol' mother nature, but sure didn't hurt me! Are there going to be heaters on the stage at all? That seems important to me considering blood circulation and all.

[carl h.]

Originally Posted by ubassman

Winter outdoors means that the air is wet and the wood in a double bass absorbs moisture very quickly

Not really. Air that cold can be at 100% humidity and it is still very dry air.