Outdoor gig in -16°C dergee cold

[jnel]

Hey Brian, a lot of good questions have been asked, like will there be heat on the stage,etc. can you get some answers for us- just curious.

[Treyzer]

Originally Posted by gerry grable

Ha, ha. . .This cold-weather advice coming from someone sanctimoniously ensconced in Hawaii
jeffbonney is right on. Play the gig if you want.
Steel strings will be chilly
Remember Yo-Yo at the Omama inauguration? It was cold as hell that day. But, then again, it was fake. He air-bowed

Gerry, just to set the record straight. If you look at my profile, you'll notice I did quite a bit of touring with more than a few people. These tours included Northern European countries, Asian countries, our Northeast and Alaska. I do remember playing some very chilly outdoor gigs that were very, very uncomfortable on electric bass (wouldn't even bother with an acoustic), and some very very hot outdoor festivals (also on electric), that were also extremely uncomfortable and not recommended!

I live on Kauai by choice after having travelled/toured for many years; I feel very lucky to live here but I'm far from unaware of what cold weather feels like. BTW, was just in Chicago

[Don Higdon]

Originally Posted by gerry grable

Ha, ha. . .This cold-weather advice coming from someone sanctimoniously ensconced in Hawaii

I'm sorry I didn't get to this earlier.
Congratulations on knowing a six-syllable word. Unfortunately, your use of it is syntactically silly. In the context of the rest of your comments, it has no connection to what you think you're saying.

[Don Higdon]

Originally Posted by drurb

I'm pretty sure that wood expands and contracts with temperature as well as humidity.

Something happens, I just don't have any scientific insight. I have two soundposts for my 'good' bass (handcarved by Arnold Schnitzer), one for winter, one for summer. I suspect people with adjustable bridges readjust to maintain their string heights as seasons change; I know I do. How much of that is temperature and how much is humidity, I'll never know.
As I said in a prior post, my Jacquet sounded pitiful when is was very cold, and it blossomed over a period of days at normal room temps.

[gerry grable]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

I'm going to take a wild burro guess and suppose it's the actual water content of the wood that's the culprit here. Because wood is basically cellulose fibres and lignin and whatever sappish contents are present and the amount of water it's got in it. So it's the water that freezes, right? And that freezing is going to happen quickly, especially at very cold temps -- more quickly than any moisture equilibrium process that's going on. And water expands when it freezes -- that's an easy way to ruin your house plumbing. So: how much water, leading to how much expansion? I doubt it's anything close to the movement induced in wood by variable moisture content.

Once again you are correct. Water is one of the very few substances that expand when frozen. If it didn't, we would
not exist. Our oceans and lakes would be solid ice. The element gallium is another, but it doesn't appear in its pure form in nature. Therefore, wood should theoretically shrink when frozen. However, the shrinkage in well-seasoned wood should be negligible. Glue? That's another story.
I've never had a problem with my basses getting cold, and. . . the one I play at the moment was in a unheated garage for around twenty years here in the Pocono Mountains of PA. When I had it restored, the top had to be removed but the seams were relatively intact. The biggest problem the luthier had was getting rid of the huge mouse hotel that had been built inside of it.
BTW, I do have empirical knowledge regarding various materials and cold temperatures. I spent an entire year, with no leave, in the high Arctic while serving in the U.S. Army at Thule Airbase, Geenland.

[gerry grable]

Originally Posted by Don Higdon

I'm sorry I didn't get to this earlier.
Sounds like a tee-shirt slogan for a mean-spirited, pedantic nitpicker.

[/b]Congratulations on knowing a six-syllable word. Unfortunately, your use of it is syntactically silly. In the context of the rest of your comments, it has no connection to what you think you're saying.

Thank you. I now know you can count, but can you find one?

My one-liner is supposed to be silly. I was going for the silly string of sibilants It is a rather benign rebuke to Treyzer's rude comments and puerile, BTW challenge with its concomitant smilies cluster. You're right, sharp as a tack. It has no connection with the rest of my comments, that's why it's on one line. And. . .on the contrary, it says exactly what I want it to say but, because I consider myself a gentleman, not what I'm thinking

[fxdwg]

Originally Posted by salcott

There's not enough money to get me to play outdoors in those conditions.

Right on man "No Way" who are ya playing to snow men?

[Damon Rondeau]

Originally Posted by gerry grable

I spent an entire year, with no leave, in the high Arctic while serving in the U.S. Army at Thule Airbase, Geenland.

Yep, when you're talking Greenland, you're talking some world-class winter!

[Damon Rondeau]

Here's some information from WoodWeb on the movement of wood and its relationship to moisture and temperature:

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_bas..._Moisture.html

As a woodworker, I've known about WoodWeb for a long time. It's a respected industry resource. Not much luthiery content there, but last I heard luthiers use wood. Not magic wood: wood.

Here is a germane -- I believe that's the right word -- quote from the middle of the information: "Bottom line is that heat (or cooling) alone is not an issue in wood behavior; rather it is the moisture." Seems pretty unequivocal to me.

[Damon Rondeau]

Here's a link to a related topic. At the Musical Instrument Makers Forum, there's a fairly involved discussion going on right now on the topic of building a better hygrometer, or humidity measuring device. Those folks have all kinds of experience with hygrometers and it seems it's common for these devices, no matter how much you spend on them, to require frequent calibration. If you've got tens of thousands sunk in a bass and you're sweating (ha ha) over humidity issues, you might want to follow along. You really should think about calibrating your hygrometer:

http://www.mimf.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1672

[Damon Rondeau]

Originally Posted by Don Higdon

Something happens, I just don't have any scientific insight.

But of course, Don, you're saying something happens to *the sound* of the instrument. As we all know, nobody out there has figured out the precise science of how a given instrument will sound. From a scientific standpoint, the sound we love is still mostly in the realm of mystery.

We still have no specific examples of how very cold weather will harm a double bass, but the more I think about this over the last couple of days, the more I'm leaning to it being very unlikely. The fact that it's uncomfortable to play and listen in the cold is a completely different matter, one that the OP asked us to put aside quite some time ago.

[Damon Rondeau]

...and here's a link to the resource mentioned on the WoodWeb link. It's Wood Handbook: Wood as an Engineering Material, published by the Forest Products Lab at the US Dept. of Agriculture. Looks like PDFs are available for free.

[Treyzer]

Originally Posted by gerry grable

Thank you. I now know you can count, but can you find one?

Well, we are on the interweb and we have no eye contact or signs from body language so signals can get mixed; Still, I'm not sure how this "turn of phrase" is meant to be taken. Is jabbing at someone else benign humor or passive aggressive behavior?

Originally Posted by gerry grable

My one-liner is supposed to be silly. I was going for the silly string of sibilants It is a rather benign rebuke to Treyzer's rude comments and puerile, BTW challenge with its concomitant smilies cluster. You're right, sharp as a tack. It has no connection with the rest of my comments, that's why it's on one line. And. . .on the contrary, it says exactly what I want it to say but, because I consider myself a gentleman, not what I'm thinking

I was merely stating my general experience regarding climate conditions in other parts of the world that do not have Hawaii's very temperate climate by providing additional information and support. My comments were not intended to be rude. Furthermore, challenging you, in a childlike manner, or any other manner, was not my intention.

I fail to see how my response would constitute a challenge to you, implied or otherwise. If I had wanted to challenge you in some way, it would have been exceedingly clear and direct.

[Brian K]

Thanks for the useful info many of you have provided.

I've decided I'm going to do the gig, with my bass. To those who cautioned me against it, respectfully or otherwise, I appreciate the concern, and understand why you wouldn't make the same decision.

I've had too many terrible experiences with rental basses, and unfortunately I don't have a plywood bass to play on this. So the La Scala (and my '60 P-bass) are on the gig. That's why I own them. They're both insured, for repairs and loss of value/tone, and I wouldn't be doing this otherwise. But, I'm pretty confident they'll come back just fine.

So, to Damon and James and Gerry the others with a solid understanding of what's at play in regards to the effects of the humidity and temperature issues, I've got a question:

Given that my bass is used to Toronto's wetter climate, and my humidified home, and that I'm flying with the bass the day of the show to Calgary, which is generally more arid, and that the temperature will be ~-7°C, on a stage that I assume will be closer to +X°C with lights and heaters, what should I do in regards to humidification?

Of course I'll be doing everything I can to ease the temperature change, within the available time of a couple hours before and after the gig.

My first instinct is to bring 3 dampits, and re-moisten them several times per hour, in an attempt to keep the bass from ever getting too dry and developing a crack as a result. This is assuming that the stage and backstage will be slightly above 0° freezing.

Is there anything I should be thinking of to protect the P-bass?

[longfinger]

Originally Posted by Brian K

Thanks for the useful info many of you have provided.

I've decided I'm going to do the gig, with my bass. To those who cautioned me against it, respectfully or otherwise, I appreciate the concern, and understand why you wouldn't make the same decision.

I've had too many terrible experiences with rental basses, and unfortunately I don't have a plywood bass to play on this. So the La Scala (and my '60 P-bass) are on the gig. That's why I own them. They're both insured, for repairs and loss of value/tone, and I wouldn't be doing this otherwise. But, I'm pretty confident they'll come back just fine.

So, to Damon and James and Gerry the others with a solid understanding of what's at play in regards to the effects of the humidity and temperature issues, I've got a question:

Given that my bass is used to Toronto's wetter climate, and my humidified home, and that I'm flying with the bass the day of the show to Calgary, which is generally more arid, and that the temperature will be ~-7°C, on a stage that I assume will be closer to +X°C with lights and heaters, what should I do in regards to humidification?

Of course I'll be doing everything I can to ease the temperature change, within the available time of a couple hours before and after the gig.

My first instinct is to bring 3 dampits, and re-moisten them several times per hour, in an attempt to keep the bass from ever getting too dry and developing a crack as a result. This is assuming that the stage and backstage will be slightly above 0° freezing.

Is there anything I should be thinking of to protect the P-bass?

Don't use the dampits. It's not dry in Calgary now. The enemy is freezing water expanding, then melting and contracting, why bring water to your bass?

http://calgary.weatherstats.ca/

Flying with the bass probably presents a greater risk. The plane's cargo hold will be below freezing, but the actual risk is the bump + hit handling at the airports.

On stage, heat lamps will be your friends, but don't get too close.

P-bass will be fine.

[Don Higdon]

Originally Posted by Brian K

My first instinct is to bring 3 dampits, and re-moisten them several times per hour, in an attempt to keep the bass from ever getting too dry and developing a crack as a result.

I believe the dampits are a case of wishful thinking, with a real possibility of doing more harm than good. I don't know anybody that uses them. I know alot of people who have tried them.
No dampit is going to save your bass if it's in the direct line of fire of stage heaters.

[Damon Rondeau]

Last week they had -35C in Calgary. Just saying...

[jnel]

Brian, now that you have decided to do it-maybe some more bassists, who have played in similar conditions, can give you some info- i have never been there but here are a couple of things you might consider

get rid of the dampets- everything i have read or heard is that they are a waste of time and water and do damage when they leak in the bass

check out the camping supplies at wal-mart- there is a wrap that my dad keeps in a first aide kit that holds in heat-if you could get a battery operated heater to place in the bag or in the bass, if possible, that might help during the trip. you could use a light in the f holes-on stage- Lowes(any home-imrovement place) has them-a light that is small enough to go through the f holes with electical wire-plug.

i feel better now that I know that there will be heaters on the stage-too bad you can't get hold of a ply to use- anyway, i applaud you for making the decision and wish you the best go of it-enjoy-dress warmly!

[Don Higdon]

Originally Posted by jnel

check out the camping supplies at wal-mart- there is a wrap that my dad keeps in a first aide kit that holds in heat-if you could get a battery operated heater to place in the bag or in the bass, if possible, that might help during the trip. you could use a light in the f holes-on stage- Lowes(any home-imrovement place) has them-a light that is small enough to go through the f holes with electical wire-plug.

Please stop with the advice. You just don't know, and you apparently haven't absorbed what has been said by people with cold weather experience.

[Damon Rondeau]

Brian K, I took some time before responding to your last post because you went and up'd the ante on me. I thought you were going to be doing some outdoor gig in T.O. and now here you are loading up your stuff and flying it all out to Calgary and doing some sort of show out there.

Believe me, I am no expert in the hazards of touring by air with your gear. I would suggest, though, that the air travel portion of the day is when your gear is at maximum peril. I would fear Air Canada more than I would winter. Winter is a pussy in comparison...

Given you've survived the trip, I'm thinking your gear won't get a chance to get very cold during the next part of the day. You'll travel in a warm vehicle to a heated place -- your hotel or the gig. This gig you're flying into, I'm thinking it's not a shindig at the local hockey rink, it's probably got some production resources happening. In all likelihood there will be some heated or semi-heated spaces for you guys to hang. Your actual exposure to naked winter likely won't be too great.

I'm no fan of dampits even in the best of times. I doubt they are going to help you at all here. If it really is some cold weather you'll be facing, the dampits will just freeze. I absolutely positively would not put any kind of heater inside that beautiful LaScala. You're not going to be able to preserve your Toronto indoor conditions all the way through this job -- you want the bass to transition slowly from one humidity regime to another. I don't think you're looking at too much of a big deal there, to be honest. *BUT I AM NOT AN EXPERT.* I'm a guy on the Internet.

Calgary is infamous for having highly variable winter weather. Like I said a few posts ago, they had some wicked cold weather last week. They get spells of that every year. But they also get those things called "chinooks" where they can go from -35C to zero or higher in about a day -- the chinook can hang in there for a week or more. With Winnipeg you can be damn sure a January day will very likely be between -10 and -20. With Calgary, and in general as you get closer to the Rockies and thus closer to being in the lee of the prevailing winds, you get less certain about what the weather will be like. It can be bitching cold or really about the same as what you left behind in the Big Smoke.