playing with freer drummers

[Snarf]

I've only really experienced fairly straight-ahead drummers, very old school style players. Recently I've played with a couple much more feel-oriented and free players, and sometimes I found it real tough to find exactly where the changes had to be, even got really lost a few times. I know experience will help a lot, but are there any specific tips anyone's got about this?

[jazzbassnerd]

Try putting on some "freer" records and playing along.

Albums that come to my (small) mind are Bill Evans' Waltz for Debby or Sunday Night at the Village Vanguard. The album John Abercrombie/Marc Johnson/Peter Erskine. Maybe even Miles' Four and More/My Funny Valentine set.

Some of Brad Mehldau's stuff can get pretty "free" too. Some of it's even "free" in 7 which is a trip.

As far as true, on your own stuff, listen to the "freer" players on recording without playing along. There is a language that they use to mark the form and such. Also, practice playing non-walking basslines with the Metronome on 2 and 4 (or 1 and 3. I don't think it really matters as long as it's not all 4 beats) and play through tunes that you really know.

Once you get the vibe down for tunes you've really internalized, then it becomes more and more easy to play that way on unfamiliar material.

Hope this was something like what you were looking for...

[damonsmith]

Book a bunch of drummerless gigs. After that you won't need them and I won't matter what they do.
Personally, I am pretty conservative if I actually get around to playing tunes. I don't need a tune to play free, so I prefer we keep the form and time if that is the project.
Fuqua's Chet Barker quote rings truest for me: " it takes a pretty great drummer to be better than no drummer at all"
If I have to think about the time and worry where it is, I can do it on my own without some one bashing away next to me.

In terms of free music it is a whole other thing. I still like there to be an agreement betweed bass and drums no matter how abstract things are.
Atfer that it depends on if we are playing free jazz (retaining the forward motion of jazz) or non -idiomatic music.

[Snarf]

mmm, very interesting. Thanks guys.

[bolo]

Originally Posted by jazzbassnerd

Try putting on some "freer" records and playing along.

Albums that come to my (small) mind are Bill Evans' Waltz for Debby or Sunday Night at the Village Vanguard.

Interesting ... To my way of thinking, on these recordings the drummer Paul Motian pretty much stays at home. This in turn allows Scott LaFaro to do some "freer" playing on bass which as you know leads to some incredible results.

When I play with a drummer who really mixes things up, I feel more of an obligation to stay at home and keep time with a fairly straight pulse. If nobody in the band stays home, the pulse can get lost sometimes, and trust me, most of the crowd will be really lost too.

When I play with those type drummers, I try to remember to (1) really concentrate, (2) count in my head very deliberately, and (3) stick to my guns. If you have a piano player or guitar player who outlines the melody and chord structure as you go along it really helps.

[Uncletoad]

I haven't yet played with a "free" drummer that was not just a hack with chops. I know there are great free drummers out there but I haven't found them on my $50 to $100 gigs.

Drummers beat things with sticks. They don't have to know voicings or keys or any of that to do a competent drumming job. They do have to hit things at the right time to create a feel, a mood, a groove, some motion...whatever. They don't have to PLAY time but they must FEEL time and communicate that by what they are playing.

I don't need a drummer to share time with my musician friends and create music. If a drummer is on the gig he needs to participate in that conversation by doing his job in the time that we all agree on at the moment.

If they don't they are just whacking off. I try to avoid those folks.

[jazzbassnerd]

Originally Posted by bolo

Interesting ... To my way of thinking, on these recordings the drummer Paul Motian pretty much stays at home. This in turn allows Scott LaFaro to do some "freer" playing on bass which as you know leads to some incredible results.

When I play with a drummer who really mixes things up, I feel more of an obligation to stay at home and keep time with a fairly straight pulse. If nobody in the band stays home, the pulse can get lost sometimes, and trust me, most of the crowd will be really lost too.

When I play with those type drummers, I try to remember to (1) really concentrate, (2) count in my head very deliberately, and (3) stick to my guns. If you have a piano player or guitar player who outlines the melody and chord structure as you go along it really helps.

Before I put those records on in headphones and tried to play along I would have agreed with you 100%. I didn't even like Motian's playing until I did that. Once I tried to play along on something like Solar or Gloria's Step I really started to dig Motian's vibe and think that he was a much "freer" drummer than I had originally thought.

Mr. Toad - I'm sorry about your experiences with "freer" players. A lot of the guys that I've played with who can perform this type of feel well DO, in fact, know chord changes and keys and such. They are very much equal musicians to "melodic" players. Now, they might not be able to play a great solo on the piano, but they know their stuff.

anyway....

[tZer]

Here is my definition of 'free' drumming: A stylistic approach defined by phrasing that 'plays across the bars'. A key characteristic of this approach is that the downbeat is not necessarily emphasized on every bar and the phrasing is extended. The down beat tends to show up much further down the line as opposed to coming around every measure.

I absolutely LOVE playing with drummers who can effectively play across the bars. I hate it when that is all they can do and they never play a more straight-forward groove due to some ill-conceived idea that is 'too simple and beneath them' - but when you get a drummer who can 'go free' and extend the phrasing, it is really great! It can also be disorienting. The way I stay oriented is as follows:

1. I start off by identifying the time signature. I do that by listening to what he is playing and finding where he is choosing to land his downbeats or strongest accents.
2. Once I identify the time signature, I play my part as stripped down and simple as possible, making sure I know where ONE is in every bar. So my initial line is very easy to hear, my phrasing is simple, and my emphasis on ONE is very strong. That gives the rest of the band something to key in on.
3. After I get very solid on my simple, nail ONE line, I start to evolve it to pick up on some of the characteristics I hear in the drummer's phrases. Emulating tom-tom parts - picking up on cymbal pattern, etc... If he is worth a darn, he should be offering some identifiable patterns in his phrasing. If he is playing completely random and unpredictible stuff, he is not free-drumming, he is noodling... big difference...

Bottom-line - if the drummer is NOT being the 'easy to lock-in-on' time keeper of the song, the job falls in your lap as a bass player to make sure the rest of the band does have something to key in on. Start simple, lock in tight, evolve. If things get 'hairy' and ONE begins to blur, back off and find one again - lock in, evolve.

--tz

[fingers]

What I listen for in this style of drumming is what they are doing to move the groove forward. I look at the drummer and I as a team. I also look to compliment him in some way and try to listen to what is appropriate for the gig.

I have played with 'freer' drummers that just sound like they are floating around. This makes your job really hard and all you can do is lay it down. This was my complaint with Brad Mehldau's trio when Jorge Rossi was on drums. I think Larry Grenadier was having to hold everything together. Now listen to Jack DeJohnette. He fits into the 'freer' drummer category in my head but he is always moving the groove forward and making stuff happen.

In any playing situation you just need to figure out where you fit. There are drummers out there that are no help with groove. There are drummers that only want to groove. In order to gig frequently you need to figure out how to play with the gambit. Get out your metronome. Book some drummer-less dates and get your time rock solid. In Rufus Reid's words "play the gig like you are the only harmonic and rhythmic instrument". If you get help great, if not the gig is still going to come off well and the leader will call you again.

[Snarf]

Here's an example of what I'm talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV7QD...hn%20patitucci

Try as I might, I just can't keep up with the form in my head on that performance.

[fish slapper]

...playing without out a drummer is like sex without a condom: very risky but it sure feels good.

Actually to give props to the drummer we have now in my quartet, when we first started playing, I didn't think he was much of a drummer. Not very good meter. Now that we've kind of settled in, we kind of rely on my line to drive the groove and he does the hits and rolls to add the ambience. He actually has a very nice touch. Really obvious last gig when we launched into "Favala" and he thought we were doing "Just Friends". I ended up switching to a walk half way through the head to save face. Of course, no one noticed. And you know what, you CAN swing "Favela".

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Snarf

Here's an example of what I'm talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV7QD...hn%20patitucci

Try as I might, I just can't keep up with the form in my head on that performance.

- I think that may be the point of what they are doing- the music they are making is transending the form of Autum Leaves they may or may not be keeping the form themselves. I am not a sentimental jazz guy or a big fan of showtunes, but I have some kind of attachment to Autum Leaves - great teaching piece.
Pattutucci is such an amazing musician.

[Aaron Saunders]

Originally Posted by fish slapper

...playing without out a drummer is like sex without a condom: very risky but it sure feels good.

Actually to give props to the drummer we have now in my quartet, when we first started playing, I didn't think he was much of a drummer. Not very good meter. Now that we've kind of settled in, we kind of rely on my line to drive the groove and he does the hits and rolls to add the ambience. He actually has a very nice touch. Really obvious last gig when we launched into "Favala" and he thought we were doing "Just Friends". I ended up switching to a walk half way through the head to save face. Of course, no one noticed. And you know what, you CAN swing "Favela".

I've seen Ed Fuqua say similar things..."Playing with a drummer is like using a condom. Safer with, better without." IIRC, it was his sig for a while.

That said, I honestly can only recall playing three or four in my entire musical life in a group setting without a drummer...and all but one were rehearsals/songwriting sessions. The only performance, sans drummer, was with a friend of mine (singer in our quintet now) doing "Crush" by the Dave Matthews Band, and that was over two years ago. The first musician I ever jammed with was a drummer friend of mine and since then at local coffee houses, we have done several drum and bass "jams" (to be entirely honest, mostly showboating chops -- complete with huge drum kits and me doing my best Jaco impressions on the slab) etc. etc. so a huge part of my playing and the way I like to communicate musically usually invovles a drummer. The drummer in my quintet is my main source for inpsiration when soloing or adding spice to tunes with ostinato basslines (Fever, My Heat Belongs to Daddy, Wade in the Water, etc.) and it'd feel really...weird to play without at least ANY drummer, if not the two I've been playing with for the last 4 years.

Then again, I think I've only played with a jazz piano player once (University of Toronto audition! ) so my experience is...limited to the setup we have now (v/as/g/b/d.)

Also, as far as the free/straight thing goes, only one of my two drummer friends is a jazz drummer, and he usually plays very straight. The other guy is more of a funk/fusion kind of guy with the chops any prog drummer would kill for (both are fantastic musicians.) The funk/fusion kind of guy is definitely more busy and plays over the barline very well, but I wouldn't classify him as "freer," simply because I find a characteristic that a lot of "freer" drummers is that they elasticize the beat a la Paul Motian or do nutso polyrhythms like Dejohnette, neither of which he does.

[damonsmith]

This is free drumming:
Eddie Prevost w/ Mark Wastell ('cello):
http://homepage.mac.com/misha_david/...Theater86.html
Paul Lytton with Barry Guy(double bass) and Evan Parker (saxophone):
http://homepage.mac.com/misha_david/...Theater92.html
Roger Turner with Phill Minton (voice):
http://homepage.mac.com/misha_david/...Theater65.html

[oliebrice]

Roger Turner with Phill Minton (voice):
http://homepage.mac.com/misha_david/...Theater65.html

Roger Turner is my favourite free drummer, if we're talking free improv rather than free jazz. He has such a beautiful feel its great just watching him warm up before a gig.

Other exciting free drummers to check out could include Mark Sanders, Phillip Marks and Tony Marsh.

[fingers]

That Patitucci clip is great. The thing is... these are all super high level guys that have been VERY serious about playing for a long time. The form is a little hard to follow. They stretch, pedal, bend, omit, changes at will based on listening to eachother. Watch John though. He gets into a walking groove and is pretty true to the changes. Also, being a performer in this situation makes things much easier to follow. I still say, if this is playing you are interested in doing, get out the metronome and get your time in order. Then book stuff with 'freer' guys. You will mess up from time to time. Take note, learn.


*btw I don't really think of these type of drummers as freer. The way that they phrase and approach keeping time is different. Time is still there. If there is a drummer with this approach that you feel comfy talking to, ask him about his approach.

[bolo]

Originally Posted by jazzbassnerd

Before I put those [ Bill Evans ] records on in headphones and tried to play along I would have agreed with you 100%. I didn't even like Motian's playing until I did that. Once I tried to play along on something like Solar or Gloria's Step I really started to dig Motian's vibe and think that he was a much "freer" drummer than I had originally thought.

Hey pal, I agree with you. I listened closer to Motian's work, and it is somewhat free in the manner that I think you and I are describing "free" (more on that later). I guess what I was saying was that between him, LaFaro, and Bill Evans, his parts on drums are the "closest" to home, or the least "free" of the three. Other opinions may certainly exist ...

Anyway, FWIW, I listen to those two Bill Evan's trio recordings all the time on headphones (desk job during the day). And I play Solar and Gloria's Step on a regular basis in one of the trios I'm in. In fact, the drummer knows now that when we play Gloria's Step, I am not gonna stay home, I am gonna cross the bar lines all the time, and I am not gonna show him the "1" regularly. He knows it's one of the tunes where I like to stretch out.

Now ... I am not talking about "free jazz" the way most people think of it. I am talking about a competent drummer, playing jazz in a straightahead context, who is good enough to really mix things up. The guy I have in mind never loses time. He's most definitely not a hack. He keeps time just fine. He just blurs it and deliberately obscures it sometimes by playing across the bar lines, shifting points of emphasis, ... I dunno. I think he's is one of the most creative musicians that I work with actually.

The sound clips folks have posted help suggest maybe "free drumming" means lots of different things to different people. If what I described doesn't align with your type gigs, my apologies. I enjoyed reading about everyone else's thoughts and impressions though.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by bolo

Now ... I am not talking about "free jazz" the way most people think of it. I am talking about a competent drummer, playing jazz in a straightahead context, who is good enough to really mix things up. The guy I have in mind never loses time. He's most definitely not a hack. He keeps time just fine. He just blurs it and deliberately obscures it sometimes by playing across the bar lines, shifting points of...

That is my definition of a competent drummer. It is not what I was thinking about when I was considering "free drumming". I guess defining the concept more clearly through this thread has been useful to me.

My bitching before is more about a couple fellows locally that don't play time much at all and are playing riffs constantly. They are very hard to work with.

I keep thinking when playing with those fellows that eventually they'll let up the tension and lay into some deep groove proving that they are doing some tension/release exercise that is above my head. They never do and so I spend the whole gig with an aching neck and a desperate cling to straight fours just to make sure everyone else isn't lost.

Originally Posted by fingers

I don't really think of these type of drummers as freer. The way that they phrase and approach keeping time is different. Time is still there.

I prefer to work with people that go outside the straight box and allow time to go by without having to tell you where every beat is. I like drummers that move across space and phrase and respect the silence that others are trying to leave. So in that sense "free" drumming is ...well freeing. Keeps me centered on my sense of where it's at and keeps me from being lazy.

[bolo]

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

That is my definition of a competent drummer. It is not what I was thinking about when I was considering "free drumming". I guess defining the concept more clearly through this thread has been useful to me ...

I prefer to work with people that go outside the straight box and allow time to go by without having to tell you where every beat is. I like drummers that move across space and phrase and respect the silence that others are trying to leave. So in that sense "free" drumming is ...well freeing. Keeps me centered on my sense of where it's at and keeps me from being lazy.

Yeah, me too, what you said on both points. I really dig playing with the drummer I mentioned. His presence on the gig really pushes me to put out my best effort. He is IMO one of the better jazz musicians in town, despite the all too typical label of being "just a drummer." And sometimes on a given night there are really good ... what we call ... "moments," where it all really comes together, individually and collectively.

And like I said (and I think you did too), to me it seems people posting on this thread have some really different interpretations of the original question, all of them valid I think. And all interesting (to me).

[Ed Fuqua]

There's free and then there's open. I get the sense that NARF is talking about drummers with a more open approach and how to approach playing with them. Which is really the approach, play WITH them. You should be basing your "decisions" about what you're playing on where you hear your voice in the immediate musical environment, right? Your conception influenced by the dialogue with everybody else's conception? You have to respond with the vocabulary you have in a way that has meaning for the conversation. It may be hard to talk about baseball if you don't know anything about baseball, so you may have to be a little mechanical about the approach in the shed, in reherasals or sessions. But just like learning other parts of the language, LISTEN to a lot of it. Listen intently, what exactly is going on between the bass and drums (and how does that relate to what's going on with the solo and the other accompaniment). get together with the drummer and do some exercises - MISS JONES 4 bars time, 4 bars open, 4 bars time, 4 bars open etc. Play MISS JONES where you can only use notes/pitches from the melody, but you can use them anywhere you want. MISS JONES starting as a waltz and adding a beat every chorus. Just **** with stuff till you get to the point that you and the drummer just play TOGETHER, no matter WHAT else is going on.

Just some thoughts.


That Niels Henning quote (drummer/condom) is a funny one, but I never used it in a signature.

BOLO - I gotta disagree a little bit. Sure you want to keep the idea of balance when you are playing, but most of the time when I hear a bass player walking straight 4 behind a drummer that's really playing loose, it sounds to me like they aren't playing with each other. I just always get the feeling that decisions like this are being made with the head and not the ear.


I love playing duo, I've played in almost every combination (including a two bass hit with Ray Parker). Playing without a drummer is kind of like playing with a drummer, you listen and you play. The only thing that makes it hard is if you have allowed yourself to become accustomed to leaning on somebody else for the time.
But duo playing is easy, there's only one other voice to deal with. You can do pretty much anything you want rhythmically, harmonically, melodically.