questionable gigs

[hdiddy]

For those of you who have the freedom of turning gigs down, what's your particular criteria for saying no and how do you do it?

Here's my thing: A friend recommended me to some bandleader and he calls me in for a really odd audition. He's a horn player but he runs me through about a dozen tunes in 45 minutes, just playing the first several bars of each tune to figure out for himself if I can "cut it" and never playing anything through completely. Doesn't even ask me to solo or anything like that. He plays mostly obscure stuff and singer tunes. On the first several tunes, I ask him if he wants a broken 2-feel or a walk and he looks at me as if he doesn't know what that is. His piano playing is awful and more of a distraction as he tried to use a cheap drum machine for a drummer. It still didn't help his time which was usually behind. Anyways, This is for this is for a $50 3-hour restaurant gig that's about 25 minutes away. Which means about $20 worth of gas driving both directions. Which means roughly about $10/hour of music.

So I reluctantly say yes and take his book of tunes home as he's got everything printed out in a binder, all transposed for the singer. Leafing through everything, the tunes are relatively easy but the music choice is kinda odd. No waltzes, no blues. Lots of bossa. Some boleros (Boleros?!? who plays boleros?!?!) No bop. Max tempo is like med swing. Some of it is "arranged". Intros/outros are outlined, but the charts either straight from the RB or slightly modified - all RB errors are still included, not to mention some of the transcriptions have some unneccessary chord subs that lose the flavor of the tune for something that's super standard (i.e. All The Things..) Intro's/outro's usually consist of simply playing the last 8 bars of the tune or a one chord vamp at the beginning. Everything that tells me that these guys aren't very advanced players, I'm guessing. Minor details?

The other thing is that the friend who rec'd me to the bandleader told me he was going to play this gig as well. As I leave the audition, the bandleader tells me not to mention this to the friend as he's going to leave him out in the cold. Which then leaves me in an odd position with the friend, since we play together now and then and have been for the past several years.

Anyways, throughout everything I'm not feeling exactly settled with this gig. I got a gut feeling that this is going to be very bland or very awful. We'll see....

So I'm sure some of you have been in worse situations. I'm curious as to how y'all turn any of them down.

[Eric Hochberg]

A gig that pays $50.00 for three hours probably doesn't rate an audition, at least not in professional circles, unless it's with someone who you really want to play with and get to know. This is not the case with your situation. A recommendation should be enough for a pro leader to take a chance on you for one gig. In the end it comes down to this: You have to decide what you are willing to do for a job at a certain price. You have to show up with a decent attitude if you decide to do it. Don't be afraid to tactfully turn something down if you know it's not right for you. You could have asked your friend some questions about the bandleader before you committed. All in all, it's only a bit of your time and you can use it as a learning experience for future calls.

[Ed Fuqua]

Oy.

1st and foremost, I'd say "I can't do that, this guy recommended me for this gig and I'm not going to lie to him about what you're planning on doing to him. Call him right now and tell him he's not on the gig, or I will."

second, you don't need to take this gig. This is not a jazz gig, this is a stupid ****ing club date gig that should be paying at least $150 to show up and play these stupid ****ing tunes with some moron that can't swing if he was hanging from the end of a rope.

Third, if you have ****ing charts I don't need to be at a ****ing rehearsal that I should be getting paid for anyway. So **** you.

Was any of this helpful?

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Oy.

1st and foremost, I'd say "I can't do that, this guy recommended me for this gig and I'm not going to lie to him about what you're planning on doing to him. Call him right now and tell him he's not on the gig, or I will."

second, you don't need to take this gig. This is not a jazz gig, this is a stupid ****ing club date gig that should be paying at least $150 to show up and play these stupid ****ing tunes with some moron that can't swing if he was hanging from the end of a rope.

Third, if you have ****ing charts I don't need to be at a ****ing rehearsal that I should be getting paid for anyway. So **** you.

Oh yeah, and that, too!

[Ed Fuqua]

As far as getting phone calls.

Generally I try to find out where they got my name from, that's one clue. We all generally try to look out for each other up here and if I know it's a situation that I would not be happy playing in, I don't give out any numbers (unless I know that somebody is particularly scuffling). There was one exception to that recently (someone gave my number), I called them up and let them have it for putting me in a situation like that knowingly. That AIN'T cool.

So somebody calls and I say, "thanks for the call, where'd you get my number?" and they tell me "oh, Ray Parker". I'll then try to find out if they have actually played with Ray or where they know Ray from. I'll also try to find out if they've played with anybody else I know.
Then I try to find out about the gig, what's the venue, what's the dress, what's the pay, what's the music, who else is on the gig.

Occasionally, I show up and it's nobody I've played with and find out it will be nobody I'll ever play with again. But never ventured, never gained. Right?


I'm EXTREMELY reluctant to do unpaid rehearsals unless the music is something out of the ordinary. I don't like doing a rehearsal so teh tenor player can practice soloing over the changes of standards s/he's not familiar with. If we're doing the Joe Henderson SongBook as Additive Experience (take the prior timesignature and add 1 beat), sure. Or I'll give you Jon Hebert's number. But I can play STELLA, just tell me what key you want.

I'll do (and have done) a 3 hour restaurant gig for $50 cause it's with people I dig playing with and music I'll have fun playing.

[Pcocobass]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Oy.

1st and foremost, I'd say "I can't do that, this guy recommended me for this gig and I'm not going to lie to him about what you're planning on doing to him. Call him right now and tell him he's not on the gig, or I will."

second, you don't need to take this gig. This is not a jazz gig, this is a stupid ****ing club date gig that should be paying at least $150 to show up and play these stupid ****ing tunes with some moron that can't swing if he was hanging from the end of a rope.

Third, if you have ****ing charts I don't need to be at a ****ing rehearsal that I should be getting paid for anyway. So **** you.

Was any of this helpful?

+1000 Ed I laughed out loud when I read this!!!

Diddy - if I were you I'd RUN from this moron and his sh*tty gig! Especially if he's telling you he's gonna screw your friend over, who most likely is someone you enjoy playing with. What makes you think he won't screw you in the end, too? I could just picture it: You finish the gig and go to get your bread and he tells you, "Oh, sorry but there weren't enough people so I didn't get paid as much, yadda yadda yadda" or some other BS excuse. Believe me, I've gigged with people like this, but it was only once with each cause I never said yes again!

$50 for three hours plus a rehearsal is sh*t money unless you're playing with a killing band or you are a total beginner. YOU ARE NOT. Don't let people take advantage of you just becuase you want to gig. They will take advantage of your love of the music.

A guy like this doesn't love the music or know anything about it or give a crap. I wouldn't play a gig with this idiot if he paid me $300. You gotta draw the line somewhere. You should call him and tell him you got a real gig that night so he's gotta find someone else, or if it's too late, just do the gig and never do it again.

By the way, this gig really smells of SUCK. Don't think it's gonna be beneficial to you as a good musician to play with these lower life forms. They'll just drag you down.

OY is right....

[Freddels]

Second what Ed said and I'll add that if this guy is cutting your friend out like that then he'll do it to you next time. I'm guessing that your friend wanted more $ to do the gig and you agreed to do it for less and that's why he doesn't want you to speak to him about it.

[musicman5string]

Alot of what hdiddy described comes down to personal experience: do you think you're worth more than $50 ($30 after gas) for 3 sets? I know I do. A restaraunt gig? I don't do those for less than $100 anymore, especially not for driving half an hour. A rehearsal to play some simple charts? Forget it, like Ed said. Sure, I've done plenty of gigs where I had to drive in to NYC from NJ, pay tolls, gas, find parking (or pay for it) to do 3-4 rehearsals just to play at Detour and make nothing. But this is because I was doing someone's original music that I dug, so it was more than just "a job".


This can be a whole huge conversation about when to take gigs and when to turn them down, but to cut to the chase: if this guy sucks at piano and is playing stuff that's not appealing for just $50, and he's weird, I say forget it.

[scottice]

Sounds as if all your indications are pointing you in the correct direction.
Just say NO.

[hdiddy]

Thanks guys. No, I'm not a total beginner. I've gigged before in other styles, and my last gig was a $100/1.5 hr gig which was very informal in a trio where it was the piano players parents celebrating a 50th anniv.

I consulted my teach about this particular situation, and he advocated that I do it, simply for the experience, even if it was a bad one as it's my 2nd jazz gig, and for no other reason.

About the friend, he's also got a long way to go with his chops, but he's been rather loyal so I'm not going to turn my back on him. I understand the bandleader's misgivings about the friend, since his skills may not be up to par, but still, he should be able to play a gig like that. Also, I had forgotten that the friend has quit the bandleaders band so he could concentrate on the trio on the anniversary gig mentioned above. I shoulda known better.

Anyways, you guys are totally right just based on the merits of the music. Alot of it left me saying "***?!?" I was under the suspicion that I was going to be short-shrifted as well. I've already played someones gig once and got short-handed. Once bitten, twice shy.

These guys are definitely small timers. I didn't take this gig initially based on the money, it was more about the experience and just being forced to play new tunes. But since I'm doing this for the love of it, you're right, I should only be playing music that I enjoy. Anyways, I'll check them out this afternoon and if they can't swing I'm outta there. And all of this is just considering the music, not even the issue with my guitar-playing friend.

Besides, I wanted to see Gary Burton and Chick Corea play that night in Berkeley and had to turn that down when this gig came up.

Funny thing, at the audition, the bandleader invited up to listen to his "previous" recordings. Looking at the color photocopied cd covers, you knew the recordings were homemade. So he's got this latin-jazz band thing going and puts the cd in. The first thing I heard was an immediate squawk/clam from the horns the first tune that started up. Yech! Immediately I recognize it's a signature Tito Puente tune (Para Los Rumberos or something like that). I said to the BL, "Which Tito Puente tune is that?" because I forgot the name at the time. He subsequently looks at me as if he doesn't know who Tito is and then totally ignores my question.

Unless those guys have chops that I want to play with, I guess the lesson for today is "Learn to say NO!".

[Kam]

I agree with the general consensus that this gig is sour.

One consideration I make in addition to the others already posted, is networking and exposure. If a gig that doesn't pay much or sounds like a pain, but has the potential to get me better work in the future due to players or audience, I'll do it.

Generally though, if a gig doesn't pay well and I get the impression that I would be embarrassed if friends or (even worse) other musicians saw me playing in the ensemble, I politely decline and maybe throw the gig to a student if it doesn't suck too bad.

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by musicman5string

This can be a whole huge conversation about when to take gigs and when to turn them down

This is what I'm also interested in hearing about. Maybe this thread will turn into such.

[fingers]

Ed, man, you kill me. Right on. Definitely what we were all thinking but trying to find a diplomatic way to put it. Well, **** diplomacy!!!

This guy must be a weekend warrior. A musician would not treat another like that or if they did they'd definitely develop a rep.

My criterion

1 Is it fun?

2 Does it pay?

It must fit one or the other for me. Preferably both. If you take a gig you have to be all smiles when you are there or you should not have taken the gig. I have a wife and kids and it is not worth it to be at a gig that sucks. I rather spend time at home.

This is a discussion that my musician buddies and I have had MANY times. I can share some of that insight if the discussion goes that way. M-->

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by Kam

One consideration I make in addition to the others already posted, is networking and exposure. If a gig that doesn't pay much or sounds like a pain, but has the potential to get me better work in the future due to players or audience, I'll do it.

I was thinking about this initially as well, but since I go to jazz jams occassionally and meet lots of players at the JazzSchool in Berkeley, I don't feel that I'm lacking at being able to generate leads. I get plenty of other guys who ask me to play with them.

[Jake deVilliers]

"Oy.

1st and foremost, I'd say "I can't do that, this guy recommended me for this gig and I'm not going to lie to him about what you're planning on doing to him. Call him right now and tell him he's not on the gig, or I will."

second, you don't need to take this gig. This is not a jazz gig, this is a stupid ****ing club date gig that should be paying at least $150 to show up and play these stupid ****ing tunes with some moron that can't swing if he was hanging from the end of a rope.

Third, if you have ****ing charts I don't need to be at a ****ing rehearsal that I should be getting paid for anyway. So **** you.

Was any of this helpful?"

Fuqua, that was f***ing brilliant!!

I think it should be a sticky & required reading for musicians of every stripe.

Thank you

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

Fuqua, that was f***ing brilliant!!

I think it should be a sticky & required reading musicians of every stripe.

Thank you

+1. I realized I didn't comment on Ed's first post. Ed, you're dead on and I like it when someone cuts past the BS and says it like it is. Thanks!

I may not have played many jazz gigs/club dates, but I've played enough bad gigs to not have to put myself through that kind of torture.

BTW: There is another rehearsal scheduled for next week. At least now I'll have time to go fishing with my Dad.

[TimoMetzemakers]

Originally Posted by fingers

1 Is it fun?

2 Does it pay?

It must fit one or the other for me. Preferably both.

I have been using another version of this criterion for some time:

1. Do I like the music?

2. Do I get along with the other musicians on the gig?

3. Does it pay?

There must be at least two positive answers.

I'm one of those guys who have trouble saying no, and thinking of the above when I get those dreaded phone calls has helped me to make some progress in that area.

[musicman5string]

My philosophy, for what it's worth, is like this:

I started gigging professionally (being paid to play) when I was 19. And someone told me back then as has been mentioned already, "Take every gig you're offered; you'll learn something from each one". So I did. From the time I was 19 until about 27-28, I never turned down a gig. Now I do though. Plenty of times. Why?
1. Because I'm married and don't have to rely on gigs to pay the rent.
2. Because I'm older now and only want to play with musicians I have respect for and have a good time with.
3. Because I have a much clearer vision of what I want to be coming out of my bass and the other sounds surounding it. Does that include playing "The Rose" with some out of tune lounge singer in some depressing hotel bar for $50? No way. Besides, been there, done that.
I did learn alot from all those gigs. Probably alot more that I learned in college. But that time is over now. Hdiddy, if this is only your second or third jazz gig, you seem to qualify as a beginner, at least in terms of being a gigging jazz musician, in my book. (No offence intended). Therefore, maybe you should do it. But that's up to you. I don't think a bassist needs to spend 10 years playing lame-o gigs for "the experience", but if you're not getting alot of calls anyway, take what you can for now. If nothing else, it'll help you feel comfortable playing in front of people in a less than ideal situation after doing it enough.
Then again, maybe you're the next Mingus in which case you're destined for greatness and you'd be better off home composing instead of doing this gig. But I think even Mingus did his share of "less than stellar" gigs when getting started.

[hdiddy]

Well guys... all I gotta say is !!!!!

I showed up late, and he was even later! The bandleader was picking up the drummer while I sat there for 20 minutes at his house. He tried to get me settled into playing "Bewitched" but between his awful piano and the drummer playing really square it drove me batty. To which I screamed enough and after several starts and fits got them to play Doxy. Of course BL now switches to his tenor and proceeds to wail away on his horn at a fast clip, as if he's trying to cut teeth with me. Not exactly the best way to keep a bandmember from leaving. Not to mention, he goes so fast as to lose all of the nuance, syncopation, and whimsy of that tune. I couldn't even get him to count off in an orderly way. It felt like I was playing souless disembodied music. I felt like I was the only person attentive to anybody elses playing.

I touched on all the issues mentioned above and mainly with the way things are played on my way out. I don't think they understood me when I told them that the music "doesn't swing" and is really "square".

Sure, I can use the experience, but I think my final criteria for sh!t like this is I feel like I'd rather be pulling my teeth than music with them, I'm outta there! I've been there before, no thanks.

Anyways, thanks guys for all the counsel. It was a bit of a drag having to play that crap when a week ago, I was coming off of a high after attending workshop with Geoffrey Keezer at the JazzSchool. He was teaching a 2 hour class on trio playing ala Ray Brown Trio. I was the only bassist so it was really nice being able to play with him several times that night. Despite the discrepancy in ability, I felt like Geoffrey was really listening to what I was doing and playing with me, not just along with me. Very cool! That's how music should be played!

[Rattman]

This is maybe the best thread I've read here all week. The content is great!