questionable gigs

[Marc Piane]

I am in a similar place to MM5. I don't have a day job per se but I do make a fair amount of income from private lessons and engineering at a studio. I also do some misc composing and arranging for theatre and have been involved in doing musical direction (composing, arranging, sound design) for a few short films. Bottom line is that I don't depend solely on gigs for paying the bills, though it helps.

When I was first starting out I took every gig. You get two things out of this. 1 experience 2 name recognition. I have done more craptastic gigs than I would care to admit. Call it paying dues are whatever. I felt like I did a huge amount of learning at these gigs. College, no matter where you study, doesn't give you this life experience. This stuff helps you develop as a player.

I remember one of my teachers saying "make sure, if you take a suspect gig, that the players are at least as good as you if not better." I always think of the sports metaphor that you always run faster when you are racing against someone faster than you.

Name recognition is the second part of this. I want people to hear my name and say "oh yeah, Marc Piane, I've heard of him." That might be the foot in the door on a gig and you primarily get that from face time. There are other ways to shamelessly self-promote but nothing beats face to face as much as we love the internet.

Once you get the gig, maybe because of name recognition, you have to bring it. I leader might have heard all kinds of things about you but the proof is in the pudding so to speak. This is where the learning you do on the craptastic gigs comes in handy.

A good friend of mine who as been a pro in Chicago and New York for 30+ years always tells me "you have to do a gig under the Budweiser sign every once and a while to remember where you came from and why you are doing music at all." I'll admit some of the most fun gigs have been under said beer sign.

[oliebrice]

This thread makes me think of an issue thats come up recently on my local jazz scene, that I'd be interested in people's thoughts on:
theres a club that books live jazz a couple of times a week, and I play there with different musicians on average three times a month. The money is pretty crap (£30), but low end of going rate rather than a complete joke. The conditions are generally poor as well (no free food, difficult parking, long hours with a long break in the middle, only one free drink) - BUT, I play there with good musicians, we never get told what we can and can't play and I only accept gigs there which I know will be a creative musical experience.
A couple of good local musicians are trying to organise a boycott of the place, saying the conditions aren't good enough for the standard of musicians they're booking. I have some sympathy for this, and generally support people organising themselves and standing up for themselves, and don't want to be a scab. On the other hand, I only play there when I know I'll have a rewarding time, and as I make my money entirely from music, I would really miss that £90 a month or so.
anyone been in a similar conundrum? any thoughts?

[Aaron Cohn]

That's a tough one, oliebrice. One thing I consider sometimes is whether the musicians are getting a fair deal relative to what the place is bringing in. That's not to say I'll play for next to nothing if the place is losing money. But if it's a fun gig I'll play it if it seems like I'm getting a fair deal for the kind of place it is. Free drinks always help, too.

The other side of it is that I've turned down what could have been a weekly Sunday night gig because I didn't think it was a fair deal. In this case, it wasn't the money in and of itself--after tips, the pay was more mediocre than outright awful--but that the money didn't seem right for the place to me. But then sometimes I wish I had that going on. Sunday night after all. My two cents for what it's worth.

[Marc Piane]

Olie

Ask yourself, are you screwing guys that are trying to make a living at music?

I know where myself, Ed and others stand on this but it is ultimately a question you need to answer for yourself.

[neal davis]

I think in the fact about money on gigs if you keep doing free to low pay gigs most of the time that is all you will get called for. I stopped doing most of those with my band and others after relalising I wasn't doing anything for myself by doing them(most of those gigs were $50-75) and have concentrated on good paying gigs now. The more good gigs I do with good pay the more I get called for them so even if I'm gigging less a month now then when I was college I'm still making more because instead of doing gigs that were $50-60 I don't leave the house for less than $100. I think if we keep taking crappy to low paying gigs we are hurting ourselves in the long run because as far as I know we musicians usually don't get a cost of living increase in our pay after a gig. So if you think the gig is crap(players, pay) don't do it. Get together with somefriends and jam, you will be able to play everything you want and hopefully keep working out your s""" so you can get a gig that pays you right which is something you all deserve

[musicman5string]

Originally Posted by oliebrice

This thread makes me think of an issue thats come up recently on my local jazz scene, that I'd be interested in people's thoughts on:
theres a club that books live jazz a couple of times a week, and I play there with different musicians on average three times a month. The money is pretty crap (£30), but low end of going rate rather than a complete joke. The conditions are generally poor as well (no free food, difficult parking, long hours with a long break in the middle, only one free drink) - BUT, I play there with good musicians, we never get told what we can and can't play and I only accept gigs there which I know will be a creative musical experience.
A couple of good local musicians are trying to organise a boycott of the place, saying the conditions aren't good enough for the standard of musicians they're booking. I have some sympathy for this, and generally support people organising themselves and standing up for themselves, and don't want to be a scab. On the other hand, I only play there when I know I'll have a rewarding time, and as I make my money entirely from music, I would really miss that £90 a month or so.
anyone been in a similar conundrum? any thoughts?

Hmm, that's a tough one. If enough musicians demand a better deal, do you think the venue would go for it or would they say to piss off? It's a tough call.
A similar experience with me was back in the mid 1990's, the bookstore chain "Borders" was having jazz groups on Friday nights and Sunday afternoons, usually trios, and paid $50 a man for 2 45 minute sets. It wasn't great, but better than nothing, and I usually played with good musicians. After a while, Borders decided that for pay it was now a $40 gift certificate to their store instead of cash, take it or leave it. Now, on one hand it's nice to be able to go buy 3-4 CD's or whatever, but at the time I needed to pay my BILLS, not augment my CD collection, especially through the lame-o Borders selection. So I tried to get a bunch of guys to boycott the place so they'd go back to cash. Borders just went and got a bunch of 16 year olds who didn't know how to tune up instead, let alone knew "Tune Up", instead.
I think at some point musicians need to not let places treat them as though they're doing you a favor by hiring you. It's really just not fair, but I think this kind of thing happens even to "Big Name Jazz Artist" when they play at "Big Name Jazz Club".

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by fingers

I remember one of my teachers saying "make sure, if you take a suspect gig, that the players are at least as good as you if not better." I always think of the sports metaphor that you always run faster when you are racing against someone faster than you.

I think this was key for me. I don't care if the bandleader wasn't a pianist, he should have some kind of musical sense about what he's playing and not just banging out chords. His scatting along with the tune was even worse. I was cringing the entire time - not because of my playing either. I may not have the speed chops he does, but when I play, it doesn't sound like it's coming from Band-In-A-Box. Heck, I'll take BinAB over his playing any day, at least the computer doesn't screw up the form (which he did). I'm thinking that skills should also be rated by musical sense and ability, to which the former is more important to me - especially when all the tunes aren't that fast. So when he switched to sax, he only confirmed my suspicion - no musical sense. Lots of notes that really didn't say much. The drummer that was there certainly wasn't on my level - sounded like someone new to jazz as well.

Already from just playing just a few short times with this guy, he already had plans for me to play all of his gigs, and probably for crap pay. He was trying to install himself as some sort of mentor to me before even knowing how I play. Which also sets off my "I'm being used" alarm.

Oh I forgot to mention, that experience literally made me feel sick. I went home and had to wash a nasty acidic feeling from my stomach. I'm glad I got out of it. Yeah, that would have been nice as an playing experience, but time is a premium for me right now so actually I think I'd lose more if I stayed with them as there are so many things I need to attend to outside of music right now.

[Marc Piane]

I would have told Borders to piss off and not thought twice about it. That is a slap in the face as I see it. If they give musicians that little respect (and this goes for any club or any band leader) then they will not get it back from me.

Speaking more generally...

I'm a firm believer in karma. My musician friends and I call it "keeping the music gods happy". It all comes down to respect. Life boils down to that. The Golden Rule. If a club or leader doesn't give you respect they should not get it back. Yin and Yang. Whatever you want to call it. If you live your life that way everything will work out fine.

First you have to respect yourself.

This is certainly no replacement for hard work. You must always strive to get better. EVERYONE has something to learn. You need to be realistic about your abilities. See your short comings as well as your strengths. Be confident in both.

Nobody deserves to have sand kicked in their face. If it were happening in real life wouldn't you move you towel to somewhere else on the beach.

Sorry to rant but s*** like this pisses me off.

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by musicman5string

After a while, Borders decided that for pay it was now a $40 gift certificate to their store instead of cash, take it or leave it.

Hrm, I'd pretty much take that as a major insult. Not only are you docked $10, but you have to spend it at their business. F*** that! If they were fair, they'd give you $60-70 in a gift certificate, only then IMO would it only be equivalent to the $50 cash you were getting before. $40 in a gift certificate is F***ed up. Yeah, Fingres is right, respect yourself first!

Another thing, in a completely business sense - I would think that if you play for a certain rate, and you repeated bring in customers for the venue, then after a period of time, you should be allowed to ask for a higher rate. If you bring in the business for them, shouldn't you get a raise too?

[oliebrice]

Originally Posted by musicman5string

Hmm, that's a tough one. If enough musicians demand a better deal, do you think the venue would go for it or would they say to piss off?

I'm pretty sure they'd just book the mediocre musicians they book on week-nights.
I'm fully in agreement with the philosophy of not doing crap gigs, and of deserving respect. I suppose the difficulty I'm having is deciding exactly where the line is money-wise, especially as I'm at the stage in my career where gigging experience is really valuable. And when you're getting to play with really good musicians who are better than you are, then the reward is far more than financial.

[Pcocobass]

Originally Posted by musicman5string

Borders just went and got a bunch of 16 year olds who didn't know how to tune up instead, let alone knew "Tune Up", instead.

I think this is a large part of the problem. If one goes to a restaurant and the food outright sucks, one would never return. People in general know if food tastes good or not. Unfortunately, when it comes to music, people are much less able to tell the difference between the good and the bad, especially in jazz. If the general public was smart enough to recognize jazz musicians who suck, then maybe there would be more quality control, and perhaps the better would rise to the top. Thank you pop culture....

BTW, if Border's pulled that crap with me, I'd tell them to go f-themselves too.

[bassdblr]

Originally Posted by neal davis

I think in the fact about money on gigs if you keep doing free to low pay gigs most of the time that is all you will get called for. I stopped doing most of those with my band and others after relalising I wasn't doing anything for myself by doing them(most of those gigs were $50-75) and have concentrated on good paying gigs now. The more good gigs I do with good pay the more I get called for them so even if I'm gigging less a month now then when I was college I'm still making more because instead of doing gigs that were $50-60 I don't leave the house for less than $100. I think if we keep taking crappy to low paying gigs we are hurting ourselves in the long run because as far as I know we musicians usually don't get a cost of living increase in our pay after a gig. So if you think the gig is crap(players, pay) don't do it. Get together with somefriends and jam, you will be able to play everything you want and hopefully keep working out your s""" so you can get a gig that pays you right which is something you all deserve

I couldn't agree with your more on this. Last week I was called to do a free (but dinner provided) gig at an elegant retirement facility during rush hour. That would have meant driving across town, playing with some ok, but not great musicians and then rushing back to go to a rehearsal. I figured I would have lost money on this one. Made me kind of angry that these guys play weekly under these conditions. I just don't want people to get that idea that I do these kinds of gigs. I don't get called for a lot of gigs, but this one I turned down for a change. I see a lot of no self-confidence with these folks who are minimizing their talents, think they are kind of crappy players anyway (they aren't) and so the low/no pay cycle continues because they think that's all they are worth.

So, instead of crappy gigs, I am rehearsing weekly with some very good players in a jazz combo. This group is good enough to play out, and we do some complicated tunes. These are good players who just haven't been out there that much, raising families, working, etc., but we are going for the gigs that pay, and we will be really prepared with some good arrangements. It is totally worthwhile doing these rehearsals as a high level learning experience too. I solo on just about every tune, so I am getting that soloing experience. We play for at least two hours straight.

[neal davis]

Yeah it is tough because I know some great musicians that will do some gigs where they won't make much but they may have a teaching gig or a wife/girlfriend with a good job or they themselves may have a day job and the money doesn't matter to them. But since I have been sticking with my guns about minimum money for a gig I have been getting called for better gigs and the players who are on them are great pros as well so I've found it to be a win win situation. I don't think I now need to prove to people that I can play by going out and doing crappy gigs.

[Randy Ward]

I am with everyone on this. No freebies (Do they always have to say: " do it for the exposure"? I always reply that you can die of exposure in Florida!) Low paying and crappy gigs. I never do 'em. But at one point I did do every gig I could, anywhere, for any money. And like fingers said that does get your name out there. But at some point you've got to cut back on the low paying things or that's all you'll be offered like Neal Davis said. They will be thinking:
"The guy plays pretty good and I got 'em for 40 bucks! Wonder if he’ll do it for 20.00?" The pickier I got about the pay, the where and the who of a gig, better ones were offered more often.

Do you guys have these things called 'vanity gigs'?
Where someone just pays everyone out of pocket to be a star? Usally they seem to be concerts but There was a place here that had a low to mid paying (100.00 USD per player) two-hour Wednesday night jazz quartet gig that I subbed on a few times. Last Month this guy is who a bad Sinatra wanna be, who also happens to be wealthy lawyer and real estate investor, hires a large band at the same place for Sundays. It was made up of the A list and semi-name players from Miami (about 80 miles away) and he pays then (very well) out of his pocket while the club/restaurant pays nada. I don't know if these guys don't care or things are so bad in Miami gig-wise that they are not thinking of the long-term consequences. So anyway, guess what happened to the Wednesday night gig last week? Why should the club pay for the quartet on Wednesday when they can get a small big band for free?

[neal davis]

I've been involved with those gigs even at a jazz festival where an ex school teacher/saxophonist? with a great pension told the festival that you shouldn't pay anyone in any of the bands more than $50 Dollars a guy. Now this means bands from 1 kilometer away or my band that was coming in from switzerland and doing the tour as part of the circut. Well that was one less gig we got but this A''hole picked up a few more gigs for the festival then put his sax away in the closet for a few months until he got the urge to go out again and get a gig. Now why someone would sell themselves this short I don't know. The year before I made $400 plus travel expenses for a hour and a half set. It only took me 45 door to door to drive to the festival in the town where I grew up. This guy had nothing to do with any of the gigs I guess because he sucked and wanted one so he undercuts every musician that was playing at the gig before we signed contracts for the pay.

[theshadow2001]

Originally Posted by oliebrice

This thread makes me think of an issue thats come up recently on my local jazz scene, that I'd be interested in people's thoughts on:
theres a club that books live jazz a couple of times a week, and I play there with different musicians on average three times a month. The money is pretty crap (£30), but low end of going rate rather than a complete joke. The conditions are generally poor as well (no free food, difficult parking, long hours with a long break in the middle, only one free drink) - BUT, I play there with good musicians, we never get told what we can and can't play and I only accept gigs there which I know will be a creative musical experience.
A couple of good local musicians are trying to organise a boycott of the place, saying the conditions aren't good enough for the standard of musicians they're booking. I have some sympathy for this, and generally support people organising themselves and standing up for themselves, and don't want to be a scab. On the other hand, I only play there when I know I'll have a rewarding time, and as I make my money entirely from music, I would really miss that £90 a month or so.
anyone been in a similar conundrum? any thoughts?

From where Im sitting it seems you only play when there's musicians of decent quality who you can learn and share experiences on stage with. Sure in the short term its £30 for you if you keep playing there.

But what you could lose if you continue to play at the venue is the respect of the other musicians that play there. Musicians that you enjoy playing with. With the loss of respect comes the loss of interest in calling you to play a gig with them in that club or elsewhere. With the loss of gigs is a further loss of money.

On the other hand if you go with the flow theres a possability that the money could go up in the club and you keep those fun gigs with more money to boot. That said the other possibilty is that it could all go pear shaped with that one particular venue. But thats only one low paying venue. Your keeping in favour with the other musicians can only aid the flow of gigs in your direction. I think you have more to lose if you cross the other musicians.

[armybass]

This is a great thread and very timely. I have been playing some less than favorable gigs over the past year mainly for the $ and the fact that I have been off of the URB for nearly 10 years and needed to get back into it and took any gig I could find.


A week ago I quit a decent paying weekly gig for the same reasons. I hated the gig but stayed with it for a year because of the money and trying to get some exposure as an URB player. Then I got a call for a great quartete gig and played with some killer players and I had a great time. The next night at my regular gig, I quit. After seeing hoe much I "could" enjoy playing, it made it seem so lame that I was doing a gig that I hated for money.

I quit on a Saturday night, the following Monday morning my phone rang twice with offers from some great musicians that I really respect. Having the balls to quit a gig that I hated landed me two new gigs that I love. I need the extra income to keep up the level of comfort that my family has gotten used to but I sure do prefer to play with players I respect and enjoy playing with.

[TimoMetzemakers]

Originally Posted by theshadow2001

On the other hand if you go with the flow theres a possability that the money could go up in the club and you keep those fun gigs with more money to boot.

While I agree with what you said, I have never, ever, seen this happen. Not once.