Self-taught bassists and the avant-garde

[Rasputin]

I would like to ask a few questions:

1. Can you point out some double-bass players (from all styles and musical leanings) who are considered by and large self taught either in composition, technique or music theory (improvisation in other words)? I know of Malachi Favors, Mario Pavone and Wilbert De Joode.
2. All three of them, play free music. Avant garde and the like. Do you think that there is a connection between not following a teacher and playing "outside", or is autodidactism not enough? Maybe one needs to be "special" listening-wise in order to play outside and not precieve it as noise?

Any ideas?

[Fletcher Lanning]

The best 'outside' players are also players who really know what 'inside' sounds like. Even if they are playing outside, they are good enough and have enough experience to know what their sound is in relation to the changes. It really is about just having the sound in your head so solidly that you know how and where you can deviate.

[billyfalconer]

Shouldn't this be moved to the Double Bass Forums > Bassists forum?

In answer to the question, I don't think any musican is self-taught, unless that musican was raised without hearing any music, yet somehow learns to play or compose music. Anybody who listens to any music is learning from it.

[Paul Warburton]

Yeah, this thread will probably be moved by our Mods to the Miscellaneous forum Heading. This is the area where we talk about basses.
I am self taught, with the exception of one bass lesson.
There is a dazzling list of very successful jazz musicians and great players in most genres that didn't study music formally. As Billy alludes to, if you listen to music on any kind of deep level you are studying it. Not all players need a teacher. A teacher is a valuable resource. But in a few cases not always necessary.
To name a few.....Wes Montgomery, Buddy Montgomery, Monk Montgomery, Buddy Rich, Errol Garner, Leroy Vinnegar and most of our great jazz singers.

IMO, some of the best "outside" players are very well Studied. TB's own Damon Smith (below). is a great example of a a bassist in the free idiom who has ALL the tools and knows how to use them.

http://www.balancepointacoustics.com/

[Bass]

Paul, I'm curious. How did you learn to play the bass on your own?

[snyderz]

My wife was self-taught, and played bass in the Sacramento and Phoenix symphonies. I am self taught, but alas, play in a blues band.

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by Bass

Paul, I'm curious. How did you learn to play the bass on your own?

Hey Bass.There are a few threads where I talk about this. Don't wanna take this too OT, but mainly intense interest in listening, in jazz, the bass and the fact that I was too poor to afford lessons. I HAD to have it and found a pretty simple way of having it. In one word......... obcession
If you can't find those threads and posts, drop me a PM.
Thanks fer askin' though.

[Mike Goodbar]

There's a funny moment in the Jaco Pastorius instructional video where Jerry Jemmott asks Jaco if he was self-taught.

Jaco grins and answers, "Formally self-taught.".

[Rasputin]

Sorry for the wrong forum, do move.

I can understand the concept you pointed, that anybody who listens to music is taught in some way.

But look at most standard pop songs, Beatles and on: the music is rather limited (you learn the Am, E, C, D and G chord on the guitar, and this is your main repertoire). That is not to say that it's bad, but too simple for my taste.

My question is, what does it take to know that you can play the C maj scale from D, and it will sound minorish, Dorian? Plenty of music students can tell Wes what he played, but how many of them can be so lyrical?
I can imagine coming up with cool melodies or even comping without knowing how to build a basic chord. How can people compose without it? (I ask with admiration, not criticism).

I know that Garner and Montgomery knew very little theory, and it's really amazing given the fact they played harmonic insturments...

snyderz- did your wife learn bad habits? If not, how did she got passed that?

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

Plenty of music students can tell Wes what he played.

There you are, Ras.
The neat part, at least for me IMO, is that Wes couldn't have told you what he played. He could probably have told you that it felt right and sounded right to him. Most of my mentors were very schooled musicians who could read fly **** and write down exactly what they played for you and tell you all the reasons why they chose to play that. the point being, IMO, it goes way beyond the "tool box" and they will, more times than not, tell you that they played it because they felt it. I'm just sayin' some players can do that without studying a lot to get the tools thay might need for expressing themselves. That may be just pure talent, genetics or like myself, some of that and total obcession with the music and the instrument.

[Rasputin]

Yeah. The issue kinda looms above me, since I'm a universty undergrad, studying something completely unrealted to music. I take lessons at the local music school, but sometimes you just feel that all you wanna do is discuss them weird chords all day, and study them on your instrument.
Alas, this is an expensive luxury, not only because of tuition fees, but because getting your basic needs from being a musician is very hard- almost impossible where I live.

[Tuomo Haapala]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

I would like to ask a few questions:

1. Can you point out some double-bass players (from all styles and musical leanings) who are considered by and large self taught either in composition, technique or music theory (improvisation in other words)? I know of Malachi Favors, Mario Pavone and Wilbert De Joode.
2. All three of them, play free music. Avant garde and the like. Do you think that there is a connection between not following a teacher and playing "outside", or is autodidactism not enough? Maybe one needs to be "special" listening-wise in order to play outside and not precieve it as noise?

Any ideas?

Hello Rasputin !
Very intresting thought. let me go a little bit further in this discussion:
Yoy ask if self-tought musicians easier travel their "own way" artistically.
I think it can be so in many cases. The way our music education is organized does not prefer artistic personality and own thinking, as I see it. At most of the Academies and music schools in USA and Europe the students are supposed to follow their teachers wiew of music. For teachers and schools it seems very important to have measurable skills- This is apparent in educations with technical and economical directions but this kind of "measurable" thinking has also taken over in musical Academies and schools. They measure your "handicraft skills" as a musician not your personal, original expression.
Claude Debussy once said "music and the Academiers don't fit together. If music goes in to the Academies it will die.

Today music-schools produce highly skilled instrumentalists. Skilled on the use of their instruments in technical manner but do they prior personality? Put 200 newly examinated bassists to play same piece and you will hear briliant technicality but maybe not many Malachi Favors, Joelle Leandre,Charles Mingus, David Izenzons or Gary Karr of today. How shall we learn personal artistic expression for students ? Is it something schools and teachers desire or are they happy with their grading systems ?

Tuomo Haapala
bassist, composer

[Rasputin]

It's interesting you mentiones Malachi and David Izenzon.
Malachi admits to being very little taught on the DB in terms of technique and sophisticated theory. I know that Izenzon took the DB at a relatively late age, 20 something (there is very little information about him, even in books about Ornette Coleman).

It's interesting that for me, the european avant-garde, the men in suits who compose the weird serial music- I suspect them of dishonesty. I often think that they may have other motives than creative ones (like the need to shock people) while the "african avant-garde" of jazz or weird world music (like the moroccan musicians of Joujouka)- they don't have a reputation to lose, not Ornette (at first) who got beat up because he heared his music differently.



By the way: I took my first DB lesson today, and I'm a bit overwhelmed from all the information about the left hand position (the thumb, the hand etc.) it's a bit pedantic but fun nontheless. Looking forward for the next lesson.
Lucky I know the guitar tones, that'll make the memorization easier.

[Eric Hochberg]

I'm not a self taught musician as I studied piano and trumpet with many teachers and was a trumpet major at IU a long time ago. I picked up my first DB when I was 20 after teaching myself bass guitar. Aside from a few lessons with Rufus and a few others, I am self taught on the instrument, but did a lot of learning by watching and listening to great players. I sat in the front row for 5 straight nights at the Jazz Showcase in Chicago studying everything Cecil McBee was doing with Sonny Rollins. Same with players like Charlie Haden, Fred Hopkins, Wilbur Little, Eddie Gomez...

But, I do regret not starting out as a youngster with the bow and getting those chops really under my fingers. I do think that many of the avant garde musicians I've heard are lacking in the technique and theory necessary to play out of that bag, some famous ones, too. But it doesn't matter as long as they are happy doing what they do at the level they are at, and find an audience. I always liked Malachi with the Art Ensemble and Fred Hopkins with Richard Abrams' groups and Air. Could they swing and walk through changes like Ray Brown? Don't know, never heard them try!

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by ehochberg

I'm not a self taught musician as I studied piano and trumpet with many teachers and was a trumpet major at IU a long time ago. I picked up my first DB when I was 20 after teaching myself bass guitar. Aside from a few lessons with Rufus and a few others, I am self taught on the instrument, but did a lot of learning by watching and listening to great players. I sat in the front row for 5 straight nights at the Jazz Showcase in Chicago studying everything Cecil McBee was doing with Sonny Rollins. Same with players like Charlie Haden, Fred Hopkins, Wilbur Little, Eddie Gomez...

But, I do regret not starting out as a youngster with the bow and getting those chops really under my fingers. I do think that many of the avant garde musicians I've heard are lacking in the technique and theory necessary to play out of that bag, some famous ones, too. But it doesn't matter as long as they are happy doing what they do at the level they are at, and find an audience. I always liked Malachi with the Art Ensemble and Fred Hopkins with Richard Abrams' groups and Air. Could they swing and walk through changes like Ray Brown? Don't know, never heard them try!

I think we delve here into the scary zone dominated but the question: what is music? Is John Cage music? William Parker spoke about that in an interview- how he can't say to a kid/dude who just picks up an instrument and makes "noise" that he's not playing music, because that's what people have done for thousand of years- PLAYING an instrument rather than making Mozart tunes on 'em.

[Gornick]

Originally Posted by ehochberg

I always liked Malachi with the Art Ensemble and Fred Hopkins with Richard Abrams' groups and Air. Could they swing and walk through changes like Ray Brown? Don't know, never heard them try!

The stuff I have heard of Fred Hopkins with Henry Threadgill certainly proved he could play changes, and some not so easy one at that. Henry likes to swing here and there too Fred sounds great in that context, maybe not with Ray's classic feel, but convincing nonetheless. Fred's funk chops were pretty solid too.

On a Henry Threadgill note, I saw he now has DB instead of tubas for his Zooid ensemble. haven't checked it out yet, but I am anxious to hear it.

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

I think we delve here into the scary zone dominated but the question: what is music? Is John Cage music? William Parker spoke about that in an interview- how he can't say to a kid/dude who just picks up an instrument and makes "noise" that he's not playing music, because that's what people have done for thousand of years- PLAYING an instrument rather than making Mozart tunes on 'em.

I'm not sure how you got from my post to this. I sure wasn't trying to address the huge topic of "what is music?".

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by Gornick

The stuff I have heard of Fred Hopkins with Henry Threadgill certainly proved he could play changes, and some not so easy one at that.

I have to admit that I've been mostly out of touch with Fred's playing since the mid 70's. Used to hear him a lot late '60's up until then. I'm sure his music expanded a great deal. I did hear him shortly before his death and he was as powerful as I remembered him to be.

[wayne holmes]

IMHO, anyone who is self-taught has to be highly proficient in music theory. The selftaught bassist that I know all started out on another instrument that they learned from a teacher and then applied it to the double bass. Again, IMHO, there is no substitute for a good teacher who can give you good constructive feedback. I have played next to selftaughters in orchestra bass sections. I always have the same thoughts when next to a selftaughter---there is something missing and how much better he/she would be if the technique was better or if there was more attention given to dynamics. IMVHO

[damonsmith]

Self taught is often misleading. Wilbert, for example plays with a beautiful and very fluid technique. I would for sure say he is an exception, same for Pavone and Malachai, they both came up playing a lot of great music.
I think the time/scene/period all three of those guys came up in has to be figured into what they ended up sounding like. Getting to be in Art Ensemble of Chicago or play in Bill Dixon's bands are not what most of us are faced with in our formative years!

I find it very important + faster and easier to studying the instrument in a traditional way.
For what I want to do with music it makes sense.
I like what Joe Morris, the virtuoso guitarist, does with the bass, he is self taught but already a master musician on another instrument.

When I started the bass, I wanted to play free music. I studied classical methods with teachers from day one and I continue to use them.
On a good day, I can say have a good conventional command of the instrument, what that does for me in free music is:
- Make it possible to have clear and sophiscated sections of traditional material
- Make any alternate techniques project with clarity

What separates the visual arts from music is the tendency for music to be made with others.
One of the primary reasons for traditional technique and theory is to find a meeting point with other musicians.
I am interested to being able to make music with a wide variety of people in and outside of the artistic choices I have made. That is another place it comes in handy.