Self-Teaching: Can of Worms

[TSP]

This is a reply to a post on this thread, but I thought it was sufficiently wantonly off-topic to be best moved elsewhere :-) I don't want to single out Matthew, and I particularly don't doubt at all that he is vastly more qualified than I am to speak on the subject (I love his bass-building diary - go and look if you haven't already!); but it seemed as good an opportunity as any to question something that seems to have become almost an unquestionable axiom of talkbass's DB side.

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

If you read the noobie links you'll have discovered the dark-side mantra "find a teacher" - and so your announcement that lessons are outta the question may not get you very far here(!) neither will it get you very far on the bass.

(Cue can of worms)

That does appear to be the prevailing position on here... but can it actually be justified? To pick a few names out of the air, probably the best-known living bass pedagogue, Francois Rabbath; my own favourite bassist, Danny Thompson; and our own Chris Fitzgerald, all, if I remember correctly, at least began their bass careers largely or entirely self-taught. Of course, most of us are not Rabbath, and I don't doubt that most all if not all players fare better with regular input from a teacher; but to say that without a teacher you won't get very far on the bass just doesn't seem to me to be match with observed reality. Possibly it's just differing definitions of 'very far' - I agree that you're unlikely to get to first chair of a major orchestra without a teacher (unless you are in fact Rabbath), but it seems to me that many bassists have got to, say, a good jazz gigging standard, which is all that AJHS in the original thread seemed to be discussing, without significant teaching.

Which is, as I say, not to doubt that you are most likely better off with a teacher; but I'm not sure that the statement that you won't get very far without one is actually true.

Am I way off-base here?

If not, can we come to terms with the fact that some people will choose, or even be forced, to learn without a teacher; and have room on Talkbass for them to ask questions to help them along their chosen path?

You may flame me now.

[Marcus Johnson]

I'm self taught. I've made a really good living playing bass for a long time. There's not a day goes by that I don't wish that I had some formal instruction on double bass. My formal instruction on other instruments (trumpet, mainly) has saved my a$$ many times, and probably helped foster any melodic originality that I possess. But now I find myself having to come to terms with my technical limitations on the instrument that chose me, and actually start a (gasp) practice regimen.

Which I've done, by the way.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

To set the record straight, I'm mostly self taught on the bass. I've had 8 lessons on physical technique with a wonderful bassist (Jim Bates) who used to live here, then long single lessons with Rufus Reid, Lynn Seaton, and John Goldsby. I've also had several lessons in left hand technique with my good friend Sid King (who taught me how to put my LH thumb on the bass several years ago), and a lesson on pulling a sound with the bow.

What I haven't had, and what I stubbornly refuse to sign up for, is lessons on improvisation and/or harmonic/melodic approach and concepts. It's a long story, but the essence of it is that I picked up the bass at a time in my life where I was laboring under a lot of (mostly self-imposed, in retrospect ) dogma and frustration at the piano. I was also at a crucial point in my life both musically and personally (more on that story Here). I wanted the DB to be my own voice, for better or worse, and I'm a stubborn old mule. I'm sure my playing has suffered for it, but I can live with that.

For younger players without all of the previous musical experience, I recommend a teacher - I've had plenty of great teachers before I ever picked up the DB, and learned much of what I hear under their wings. At the very least, I think all beginning players would do well to get some physical instruction on how not to ruin their arms, wrists, back, etc. while playing the bull fiddle. If I had started playing DB when I was younger and with less baggage, I think having dedicated teachers would have been the way to go. And you never know, I might change my tune yet.

[TSP]

Thanks to both for your thoughts; this is the sort of input I was hoping for.

Chris: I remembered you'd mentioned having lessons, but I also remember you identifying as 'self-taught' elsewhere, so I hope you didn't mind being included (I did say "largely or entirely"). Were your lessons on physical technique at the very start of taking up the instrument, or later on? And how far does physical technique in this case extend? I presume things like sitting/standing position, hand shapes and so on; but does it also include positions and fingerings?

Marcus: Have you considered taking lessons at this point? I remember Ed Fuqua, for one, mentioning benefitting from lessons after many years entirely self-taught (as well as, like you, wishing he had had lessons at the start).

I have to confess to having been deterred from taking lessons on some other instruments I play because I am aware that some of my technique, while it works for me, differs widely from what most teachers would recommend, and I'm loath to entirely relearn the techniques which work for me in order to access the 'next stage'. I expect the best teacher would be able to take that into account, but I can see it varying widely from teacher to teacher.

[Marcus Johnson]

Originally Posted by TSP

Marcus: Have you considered taking lessons at this point? I remember Ed Fuqua, for one, mentioning benefitting from lessons after many years entirely self-taught (as well as, like you, wishing he had had lessons at the start).

Sure.... but there isn't anyone nearby with more experience than I have. I did ask one retired symphony guy for some arco lessons, but he wasn't interested in teaching. There are some guys on O'ahu that could probably help me. I'd probably be better off doing some harmony lessons or something at this point, unless i make it to the mainland.... and then, I'm usually doing shows, so it's hard to schedule. But it's a great idea.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by TSP

Chris: I remembered you'd mentioned having lessons, but I also remember you identifying as 'self-taught' elsewhere, so I hope you didn't mind being included (I did say "largely or entirely"). Were your lessons on physical technique at the very start of taking up the instrument, or later on? And how far does physical technique in this case extend? I presume things like sitting/standing position, hand shapes and so on; but does it also include positions and fingerings?

My first lessons from Jim started about 6 months after I started playing and had injured myself (both wrists/forearms) playing with terrible technique. He was agreeable enough to teach me from the Rabbath book 1 while letting me play pizz instead of arco. He also recommended that I go through both books of Simandl the same way. It was all about hand position and fingering, sort of a primer on the physical aspect of intonation. He left town shortly thereafter (hope those lessons didn't drive him to it... ), and I started to focus on applying Aikido concepts to the bass; the most important of these was the big picture concept of drawing all of the power of the RH stroke and LH stroke from the torso instead of the arms. My sitting position evolved from this concept. The goal was to make the bass an immovable object against which I could exert force by letting the angle of both shoulders and the weight of both arms provide the leverage to make the sound happen without much muscular effort. Rufus reinforced these ideas a few months later by advising me to practice without touching my LH thumb to the back of the neck, and to never apply pressure from the forearms and wrist. He didn't like the seated thing (neither did Lynn), but it felt right, so I stayed with it. I think that they are both getting the same kind of results from their angled endpins, but I'm not built like either of those guys and couldn't get comfortable standing as they could.

With Sid, he showed me his TP spacing and turned me loose on Petracchi. After that, I just practiced position playing up there and focused on getting the music out. I still have a long, LONG way to go, and if the right person moved to town, I'd consider studying with them. If Goldsby was here, I'd study with him in a heartbeat - he's got a lot of things together that I want to get together. I'd love to study with Drew Gress, but short of moving to NY, I doubt I'll get the chance. So for now, I just practice hearing and singing things and trying to figure out how to execute them.

I try to encourage students to find their own voices, and to try to be as autodidactic as possible. If they want to stand, or get a dark sound, that's fine. But if they're out of tune or the time is funny, I'm there as a nagging reminder.

I have to confess to having been deterred from taking lessons on some other instruments I play because I am aware that some of my technique, while it works for me, differs widely from what most teachers would recommend, and I'm loath to entirely relearn the techniques which work for me in order to access the 'next stage'. I expect the best teacher would be able to take that into account, but I can see it varying widely from teacher to teacher.

I can dig it. I think as long as what you're doing is truly working, that's all good. Part of a teacher's job is to let you know when it isn't, or to help you find an easier way in the long run. My favorite kind of teacher is the kind that guides you into finding your own voice and helps you avoid some of the more common pitfalls along the way you might not even realize you're making. I still believe that recording is another great way to do this, but you have to be really honest when you listen back. Ed's really good at helping people do this.

[mcnaire2004]

Personaly I am self tought up untill 2 years ago. I had a jazz teacher for 5 months who helped my with different rythms. I tought myself how to play and even thumb position and all the harmonics. I got a good classical teacher this august and it has helped me dramaticaly. I taught myself most of the big things. My teacher has helped me with little things that have dramaticaly helped my playing.

I think it is possible to teach yourself how to play. But, you will miss all the little things that can make the difference from a bad player and a great player. You'd be suprised how something so small can effect your sound in such a big way.

[bpclark]

I've got a lesson with Jim (Otterbein College) this week, shall I ask him?

My first lessons from Jim started about 6 months after I... He left town shortly thereafter (hope those lessons didn't drive him to it... ),

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by bpclark

I've got a lesson with Jim (Otterbein College) this week, shall I ask him?

Sure, although I'm not sure i want to know the answer. Tell him I said hi - Jim's good people. Ask him if he still eats as many avocados as he used to.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by TSP

If not, can we come to terms with the fact that some people will choose, or even be forced, to learn without a teacher; and have room on Talkbass for them to ask questions to help them along their chosen path?
.

Well - I think you have to take account of the fact that many people are reading whatever is posted here and there is some kind of moral responsibility to give the best advice possible.

So - OK we can all give examples of people who were self-taught - but often these people will say that they would have progressed more quickly with a teacher.

If it goes unchallenged, then it is very easy for people to read forums like this and think "ah I don't need a teacher look at xxxx" - whereas it would in reality have been very easy for them and would have made a huge difference to their playing.

I think it's far better that TB is tilted towards saying you must get a teacher, rather than the alternative - where you get ignorance like : "a teacher will stifle my creativity" ..

[Damon Rondeau]

I think it's probably "duty" to give the DIY-er the teacher mantra as our best-option, number 1 piece of advice. Does that mean that none of us can proceed to advice options 2 through ____, after we've done our duty? I don't think so. Witness the Joe/Ed thread, or Ray Parker's fingering thread (is that still around here?)

Actually, we hear it around here all the time "What does your teacher think? Here's what I think."

[Marcus Johnson]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

Ray Parker's fingering thread (is that still around here?)

Oh yeah! "The Exorcises".... I hope they're still here somewhere, I had it in favorites, but lost it somehow.

Damn, I miss Ray. His website looks really cool now.