On stage situation, what would you do?

[bassman_al]

You are performing 3 sets of jazz at a local restaurant for $75 a man. Drummer does not like what he is hearing and let's the band know, using low volume angry words. No cursing but stern in nature. Ok or violation of stage etiquette?

A follow up conversation went nowhere, in both of our opinions. He told me he thought I was "thin skinned" and over sensitive." He also said he thought it was not at all inappropriate of him to tell us that we needed to play better. He said that had he known we were going to play so poorly, in his opinion because we were not trying hard enough, then he would have stayed home that night.

He has a masters in jazz performance. I have just started playing jazz in the past 3 years, but have loved jazz all my life. Links in my sig for anyone interested in sound or video samples.

As an edit, I'll add the experience level of the band members, so you can get an idea of how diverse we are in that area.

Me: played jazz trumpet up through high school, never got as far as improvisational soloing. Listened to jazz my whole life. Started playing jazz with the bass about 3 years ago, including enrolling in a local jazz workshop. Learned to read bass clef for the first time, been working on that ever since. Also learned basic jazz theory, and continue to try to get my head around that, albeit without formal lessons.

Guitarist: has played jazz for years, attended numerous Aebersold jazz camps, played in several jazz combos. Mid 50's in age. Never got a music degree, does take lessons with local legend and Army band veteran Rick Whitehead

Drummer: as said, masters in jazz. Was a vibes player during that time, had his own group, was way more accomplished as a vibes player, generally led his own groups during that time. Knows form of lots of songs, backwards and forwards. Has given me lots of help with theory, but does not seem to understand how much I don't know. Decided to switch to drums a few years ago.

Sax player: currently in a masters program for jazz performance. has undergrad music degree, many years performing. is the kid of the group, my guess is that he is 28 or so. Very nice guy, has always been supportive of anything that I do, accepts my level of playing and encourages me to grow. Very fun to play music with. And the guy can play sax!

To address a couple questions that have come up in the thread, and thanks to all who have chimed in so far, this drummer is our regular guy. He has taken on a leadership role. His main instrument is vibes, but he put those down years ago. He was more accomplished as a vibes man and band leader, and is used to being the guy who is running the show, both on stage and off, as far as the music goes. He knows his stuff and I have learned a lot from him, he has given me much assistance through our year and a half together, and has been patient with me as I try to get more up to speed, which is really impossible given the difference in our education levels and musical training. But he is a fiery guy at times and makes no apologies when it comes to putting on a quality performance. Normally, I am all about that approach, as long as it also preserves the dignity of the band and the individual members.

And, as is often the case in groups that I have played with, I have secured all our gigs and have single-handedly kept us working steadily almost since day one. Its hard work, the type that nobody else is willing or able to do. In a divorce, I will be keeping the gigs, or at least that would be my plan if things don't get better...

Here is the text of an e-mail he sent out after the gig:

"Bandmates,

I have reflected on my comments during and after the third set, Saturday night at Petworth, and I am no less disappointed at how the band performed, nor how it seemed that a solid effort was not being given. Perhaps the poor turnout among patrons played a part, perhaps individual fatigue contributed, but hopefully it wasn't because it was the best effort of which we are capable.

I've come to wonder whether certain things can ever change in TDJB . . . with or without rehearsals. I would, however, recommend addressing the following at a minimum:

• We need to revisit the idea of solos being "tied in a bow" at the end, in such a way that one soloist doesn't continually "step on" the next. Most of the solos Saturday night were just rambling and note-y; ending with a "whimper," or meandering into the beginning of the next soloist's first chorus.

• We need to (ONCE AND FOR ALL) figure out why we can't seem to correctly play "A-A-B-A" form, without altering it to "A-A-B" once the melody has been stated and is no longer a guideline. We must internalize 4-, 8-, 12-, 16-, 24-, and 32-bar structures.

• There is a wide rage of notation-reading skills in our band, and that's not unusual for any group. As a group, we are obviously not a sight-reading band, and therefore it is evermore necessary for us to REHEARSE! What I don't understand is why we can't seem to follow the charts of simple tunes, and Ron's offering of "And I Love Her" was about as simple as a chart can be.

We must do better, because Saturday's gig, the majority of it anyway, was bush-league . . . at best!"

[Mudcat35]

Huge violation of stage etiquette. We had a drummer do this once and we fired him on the spot between the second and third sets. Moved his gear onto the sidewalk, and played the final set without him. Haven't heard from him since and we don't miss him. My band absolutely does not tolerate that sort of behavior.

[bassman_al]

Thanks. Other opinions to help my reality check? I tried to post a poll after the OP, but was not able to create one.

[phatbass]

On-stage venting is a definite no-no. Is it the material or the way it's being performed? Not that it matters.

If the problem he's pissed off about is something that can be fixed on-the-spot, he should talk about it on the break. If it's not fixable at the gig, wait until a couple of days later to discuss it.

[TomB]

...depends on the whole package. Is this a pickup drummer? If so, then I imagine he won't be back. If it's your regular drummer, well, sometimes any of us gets grumpy, right? Key to me is to leave the audience completely out of it. If the mood is crossing over into the room, then who needs it.

[Ric5]

Never belittle or put down band members on stage.

[cassanova]

Though I think he should've waited until between sets to voice his displeasure, if the audience couldn't hear what was being said then I wouldn't be too harsh with him over it. I'd address his complaint and also suggest that next time he doesn't like what he's hearing that he wait until between sets to voice his disgust.

[groooooove]

depends on what it is. i'll give an awakening "HEY!" to a drummer if he's dragging, or something like that. what exactly was he saying?

in the restaurant jazz gig i could see almost anything being a bit inappropriate though, anything more than basic bandleading directions.. "bring it up" "pull back" "soft" "louder" type of things..

[Punk Rock Jason]

If this is a first time thing and the audience couldn't hear it - I'd say bring it up as a band and set up the expectation that during the set is not the time to discuss problems, save that for breaks.

If this is a pattern and he's being an @$$ - kick him to the curb and find another drummer or keep on performing without him.

Just my $.02

[dcr]

Kinda depends, but all-in-all, a HUGE VIOLATION!

My #1 RULE of performance: Smile and look happy to be there. If you look like you're having fun, then the audience has fun. If something freaky is going on on-stage, they'll pick up on it sooner than later.

Everybody has a bad day now and then, and I don't personally see it as a firing offense, as some have mentioned -- at least not the first time. But I'd certainly bring it up after the gig and find out ***. And make it clear that that sort of behavior is UNCOOL and won't be tolerated in the future.


dcr

[Don Higdon]

Unprofessional. He took the gig. It's his obligation to perform. He can bitch after the gig is over.

[bassman_al]

I added a couple things to the OP, material that I imagine will get some of you pretty fired up.

2 months ago this same guy, who is 60, punched the guitarist in the chest. because drummer got mad at guitarist for being overzealous in his efforts to help the drummer, who has had 14 back surgeries and is in constant pain. The drummer got pissed at me, and told me he is still pissed, because I sent him an e-mail afterward voicing my opinion about him hitting the guitarist. Drummer denied punching, said it was more of a hit than punch, and said they were both fine 10 minutes later and it was none of my business. I disagreed, saying any altercation between members of a band I am in is going to be my business.

Opinions? I am trying to get a good reality check here, because I want to be fair in my assesment of the situation, and in my evaluation of where to go from here.

Thanks fellas.

[Mudcat35]

Sorry, but this guy seems like a complete ass to me. I don't care how good he is, I wouldn't tolerate it.

[JimiLL]

This guy sounds like a sociopath

[BeyondFiredUp]

The on-stage low-toned rebuke was not as big a deal if nobody in the audience heard it. Sometimes one member will hear something other members may not for whatever reasons, and let them know to kinda "get it together". Nobody should be "thinskinned" in that regard, it may save the band from continuing in a mistake -filled or sloppy evening. HOWEVER, physically hitting a fellow member is assault by any other name, and there are serious issues with that. There certainly seems from your OP that this guy is not happy nor will he ever be in the band you're in, and you guys should find a way to part ways amiacably with him while it's still somewhat feasable to do so. Just my 2cents, and good luck, mate.

[Tampabass]

Originally Posted by Don Higdon

Unprofessional. He took the gig. It's his obligation to perform. He can bitch after the gig is over.

exactly. If he's that dissatisfied with the band, then he oughta try greener pastures. Nobody's forcing him to take the gig and the $$.

[fourfinger]

Originally Posted by bassman_al

...the drummer, who has had 14 back surgeries and is in constant pain.

If you are looking for reason to forgive and forget, this would be it. He is certainly acting like he is in constant pain.

His detailed email heavy on the music seems to indicate that his music is very important to him, or to his ego at the very least.

I think the first question is, who isn't being a team player -- him, or whoever he's frustrated with musically? If you can answer this question without any doubt, then you'll know the answer to whether or not there is reason to forgive the temper.

I mean, if he's put years into this band and is torn between sticking with it or not, then he's entitled to the email rant -- but not the putdowns.

But he needs to become aware of your perspective, even if he's being forgiven on the improprieties of losing his temper on the gig. If he doesn't see what an ass it makes him look like, trying to throw his weight around, then you can expect him to keep on doing that to the detriment of all fun.

My guess is, if you call him on his temper, he'll get angry and quit, unless he has a somewhat valid point and knows that you see it. Then there might be a turnaround for the better.

If he truly has no valid point, then there is no sense in postponing the inevitable parting of ways.

Good luck; this sounds like a personality conflict more than anything.

[phatbass]

Originally Posted by bassman_al

You are performing 3 sets of jazz at a local restaurant for $75 a man. Drummer does not like what he is hearing and let's the band know, using low volume angry words. No cursing but stern in nature. Ok or violation of stage etiquette?

A follow up conversation went nowhere, in both of our opinions. He told me he thought I was "thin skinned" and over sensitive." He also said he thought it was not at all inappropriate of him to tell us that we needed to play better. He said that had he known we were going to play so poorly, in his opinion because we were not trying hard enough, then he would have stayed home that night.

He has a masters in jazz performance. I have just started playing jazz in the past 3 years, but have loved jazz all my life. Links in my sig for anyone interested in sound or video samples.

Here is the text of an e-mail he sent out after the gig:

"Bandmates,

I have reflected on my comments during and after the third set, Saturday night at Petworth, and I am no less disappointed at how the band performed, nor how it seemed that a solid effort was not being given. Perhaps the poor turnout among patrons played a part, perhaps individual fatigue contributed, but hopefully it wasn't because it was the best effort of which we are capable.

I've come to wonder whether certain things can ever change in TDJB . . . with or without rehearsals. I would, however, recommend addressing the following at a minimum:

• We need to revisit the idea of solos being "tied in a bow" at the end, in such a way that one soloist doesn't continually "step on" the next. Most of the solos Saturday night were just rambling and note-y; ending with a "whimper," or meandering into the beginning of the next soloist's first chorus.

• We need to (ONCE AND FOR ALL) figure out why we can't seem to correctly play "A-A-B-A" form, without altering it to "A-A-B" once the melody has been stated and is no longer a guideline. We must internalize 4-, 8-, 12-, 16-, 24-, and 32-bar structures.

• There is a wide rage of notation-reading skills in our band, and that's not unusual for any group. As a group, we are obviously not a sight-reading band, and therefore it is evermore necessary for us to REHEARSE! What I don't understand is why we can't seem to follow the charts of simple tunes, and Ron's offering of "And I Love Her" was about as simple as a chart can be.

We must do better, because Saturday's gig, the majority of it anyway, was bush-league . . . at best!"

Although the points he brings up in the email may be valid, and it may not be inappropriate to point them out at some stage, YOU DON'T DO IT IN THE MIDDLE OF A SET IN FRONT OF AN AUDIENCE, NO MATTER HOW SMALL!!!! That's total amateur s**t.

He still should have STFU onstage and just discussed it afterward.

I admit have a thing about folks who think that if they yell enough at someone, people will somehow magically instantly improve.

[bombpop14]

Not cool..

[cassanova]

Originally Posted by bassman_al

I added a couple things to the OP, material that I imagine will get some of you pretty fired up.

2 months ago this same guy, who is 60, punched the guitarist in the chest. because drummer got mad at guitarist for being overzealous in his efforts to help the drummer, who has had 14 back surgeries and is in constant pain. The drummer got pissed at me, and told me he is still pissed, because I sent him an e-mail afterward voicing my opinion about him hitting the guitarist. Drummer denied punching, said it was more of a hit than punch, and said they were both fine 10 minutes later and it was none of my business. I disagreed, saying any altercation between members of a band I am in is going to be my business.

Opinions? I am trying to get a good reality check here, because I want to be fair in my assesment of the situation, and in my evaluation of where to go from here.

Thanks fellas.

I would hold a meeting at the next rehearsal and address the issues he pointed out with the whole band there. Though, I have a feeling if you all think his points aren't valid, he'll assume you're just ganging up on him. Nonetheless, I'd still address it.

As for him hitting the guitarist, that would have gotten him instantly cut loose from any band I'm leading. I understand tensions get hot, but there's no need to hit someone unless you are physically threatened and imminent danger of being attacked. At his age, one would think he'd know that as well.