Starting on the True Path

**john turner** · #1 08-11-2006, 07:10 AM

heya folks

to celebrate 22 years on bass guitar, i have decided that it's about time i got legit.

how would you guys advise i go about it? obviously i need to get a good db first - since i've spent the past 14 years in extended range-only land, i'd prefer to get something with 5 strings or at least a string extender, but i wonder if anything in the ~$2k range would qualify. any ideas? i remember seeing a 5 string chinese bass at namm a few years ago, didn't know if it was worth mentioning.

i'm just a bit shy of 5'10" tall - what scale should i get? 7/8?

i am as equally inspired by classical as i am by jazz, if not more so, and would like to study both arco and pizz. what would be a good bow to get? should i worry about bow style, or just get an inexpensive one to start?

i have a pretty solid theory background, and although i am not the world's best sight reader, i can limp through most charts that are not too terribly dense. i have good meter, lots of 'nome recording exp and a good ear (2 actually) as well as lots of fretless exp. the biggest lack in my skills as far as db goes is technique - actual sound production on the instrument - the few times i've tried it sounds like a badger with a goiter.

those of you who know me know i'm not afraid to spend some dough on an instrument, nor am i afraid to dive into unknown territory with a decent financial committment. should i shoot for a more expensive instrument, or get a beginner and work my way up? i won't make this jump without being pretty committed to seeing it through, so i'm not too worried about "wasting money" but on the other hand, i know that db's can get astronomical quick, pricewise, so i don't want to overextend myself.

so any advice, pointers, etc. that you guys can send my way, i'd really appreciate. thanks

Bruce Lindfield · #2 08-11-2006, 07:36 AM

From reading the DB pages here, for a few years, I'm sure the general advice will be to get hooked up with a good teacher first - who can then advise you on the answers to the other questions you ask - e.g. What Bass, bow etc.

Sounds like you want to get a Classical teacher - maybe from a local orchestra....?

pklima · #3 08-11-2006, 07:40 AM

Size shouldn't be a problem but if it's over 42" check how comfortable your hand is in half-position. You should be OK, you're after all much taller than the average person around the time that bass sizes were standardized, but check anyway.

Studying arco is definitely a good idea. I'll stay out of the German vs. French bow debates.

Good basses are also an investment so you can consider it part of your retirement investment and count on selling it when you're too old to lug it around. I'd advise you to get an experienced double bassist (perhaps a teacher - this would be your first lesson) to go bass-shopping with you and try instruments in various price ranges. I looked at instruments of various prices and ended up with a $6500 one. It was noticeably easier to produce a big sound than the best $4000 basses but no harder than the $8000-10000 basses I had access to try. It's butt-ugly, though. Same with the $1000 bow vs. $600 bows. I played the first few months with a very cheap fiberglass bow though at least it had real horsehair.

Regarding range, remember that the fingerboard is much longer than a BG. There's plenty of range to learn to play in tune! But you could get a fiver, there's even someone (Mario Lamarre, I think?) who makes fivers with extensions. Or you could do what I do and tune in fifths. That would break you out of any boxes of using BG patterns and fingerings, give you extended range, force you to get good at shifting and improve the resonance of the bass. But you can read the threads on tuning in fifths, there are plenty of'em.

Best of luck on the new path!

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #4 08-11-2006, 09:22 AM

Hey John, welcome to the fold! You'll get a lot of great feedback here. At 5'10", you can play any size bass you want. The most common size out there is 3/4, followed by 7/8. I've always played 3/4 basses, and I'm 6'2". As for what type of bow to get, first find a teacher, then do as he/she advises. As far as the bass itself, there are a lot of great options in the "under 10K" market - Shens, Christophers, New Standards, Upton, etc. Read some of the threads ont hese brands and see if anything tugs at your heartstrings. Any if you're ever up my way, give a shout and come check out my New Standards.

Ed Fuqua · #5 08-11-2006, 09:46 AM

Who'd a thunk it?

E-mail Alexi, he's got a Chrissy 5 er and it sounds pretty nice. He's got a mix of gut, gut-like and steel on it; it's loud and warm.

But I'm sure that the usual suspects (Shen, Upton etc) have some kinda 5 available.

One of the things you may want to consider is that the frequency and volume response to playing "extended range" particularly pizz ain''t gonna be what it was on electric, so trying to go there on upright may not actually be what you want. On electric, the response between bass and cello range can be remarkable consistent, on upright far less so. Even arco, the sound in TP on a high C string is going to be far less cantibile than the same notes on a cello. Just a thought.

Aaron Saunders · #6 08-11-2006, 10:13 AM

Good to see you coming on over. It's a great feeling, playing the biggun'

.

I agree with Chris on the "under 10K" thing -- I've played several of those basses in shops, and if I hadn't found mine, I probably would've ended up with a Shen. Another name to look out for is Strunal, but you'll probably be spending more money than that.

Get a teacher, they will help immensely.

Bows, you can get a good quality, affordable German or French style brazilwood bow from www.gollihur.com 's store. LOTS of positive feedback on this place. Bob himself posts here, and is a really nice guy with a standup business. As far as French OR German, that's something you can only decide for yourself. People will tell you there are pros and cons to both, but it's very much a personal choice. Personally, I have both. I'm much more comfortable on German.

I dont' mean to sound snooty, but (largely because of the much smaller, more tightly knit community) the DB forums are generally better maintained and you will find more information, far more readily than on the BG forums. As such, the newbie links and stuff on this side are all full of great information.

**john turner** · #7 08-11-2006, 10:34 AM

thanks for all the great info guys. yeah, i intend on thoroughly perusing the db newb links, just was wanting to see if there were any pointers you guys could give that would be tailored to my particular circumstances (bg vet switching over).

and yeah, i'm pretty familliar with how well behaved all you gents are. used to mod here before i handed it off to sir durrl

.

**john turner** · #8 08-11-2006, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

One of the things you may want to consider is that the frequency and volume response to playing "extended range" particularly pizz ain''t gonna be what it was on electric, so trying to go there on upright may not actually be what you want. On electric, the response between bass and cello range can be remarkable consistent, on upright far less so. Even arco, the sound in TP on a high C string is going to be far less cantibile than the same notes on a cello. Just a thought.

yeah, i'm focusing my extended range hopes only on the lower-than-standard range on the db. i'm thinking a 5er of some sort would probably do me fine.

Ed Fuqua · #9 08-11-2006, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john turner

yeah, i'm focusing my extended range hopes only on the lower-than-standard range on the db. i'm thinking a 5er of some sort would probably do me fine.

You might also want to check out a C extension then. DB world is a little different than EB, you will be better served by playing a bunch of different basses, finding one who's voice speaks to you and then seeing what you can do to get THAT bass in a configuration you want. Can it be turned into a 5er? Can I add an extension? Is altered tuning the best approach?

But go for the SOUND first, bells and whistles second.

**john turner** · #10 08-11-2006, 11:30 AM

gotcha. i'm figuring i'm going to need to get someone with a clue - probably my future instructor, whoever that ends up being - to accompany me as i try out instruments, like pklima suggested.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #11 08-11-2006, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john turner

thanks for all the great info guys. yeah, i intend on thoroughly perusing the db newb links, just was wanting to see if there were any pointers you guys could give that would be tailored to my particular circumstances (bg vet switching over).

Yes. There are a lot of threads about this, but in general most of us who have made the switch have dealt with the same basic situation: your musical knowledge transfers, but your technique doesn't. Since you're a fretless player (I was, too), you'll have the advantage of having experience with making intonation an integral part of the playing experience.

But technically, it really is kind of like starting over. You'll need to develop a "whole body" technique that applies to both hands, whereas on BG, the physical demands are not that great in terms of exertion and potential injury. Tax a small muscle to 30 or 40% capacity for an extended period of time, and most of the time, it's no big deal. But tax that same muscle group to 120% for even a short amount of time, and you can really hurt yourself - I know I did, and I still practice in front of a full length mirror to keep an eye on bad physical habits. This gets more important as I get older, and my body heals slower. The teacher thing is a real must for DB, especially in the beginning. After that, if you're playing well and staying healthy, it's more about whether you feel you need help doing what you're trying to do.

I bet you catch the fever and grow like a weed. Maybe you could become something like the Nigel kennedy of the bass world.

Quote:

and yeah, i'm pretty familliar with how well behaved all you gents are. used to mod here before i handed it off to sir durrl

.

You were a great teacher, funny haircut and all.

John Sprague · #12 08-11-2006, 01:13 PM

Hey John, just to hook you up with area resources- it looks like the bass shop in your neck of the woods is Ron Sachs, he and his brother Ben are both bass-savvy, they should have a bunch of stock for you to play, toys to buy, teacher connections, etc... Here's the number: (770) 931-2440

G/L!

**Pacman** · #13 08-11-2006, 02:40 PM

I think my heart just stopped!

...oh, there it goes.

Holy crap John - I'd never have guessed! Good luck

Sam Sherry · #14 08-11-2006, 03:20 PM

JT, man, it's so cool to see you opening musical doors. You go!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

You might also want to check out a C extension then.

Great advice. One distinction between DB and plank is that adding another string to a DB makes it work different mechanically. When you add a string the whole sound of the instrument changes -- often for the worse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed

go for the SOUND first, bells and whistles second.

"Ah said it befoe but it baahs repeeting . . ."

Because you're gonna love the sound of that low E all by itself, JT.

**john turner** · #15 08-11-2006, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sprague

Hey John, just to hook you up with area resources- it looks like the bass shop in your neck of the woods is Ron Sachs, he and his brother Ben are both bass-savvy, they should have a bunch of stock for you to play, toys to buy, teacher connections, etc... Here's the number: (770) 931-2440

G/L!

ooo, wow, thanks a lot man.

**john turner** · #16 08-11-2006, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacman

I think my heart just stopped!

...oh, there it goes.

Holy crap John - I'd never have guessed! Good luck

heh, it was just a matter of time. heh.

**john turner** · #17 08-11-2006, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

But technically, it really is kind of like starting over. You'll need to develop a "whole body" technique that applies to both hands, whereas on BG, the physical demands are not that great in terms of exertion and potential injury. Tax a small muscle to 30 or 40% capacity for an extended period of time, and most of the time, it's no big deal. But tax that same muscle group to 120% for even a short amount of time, and you can really hurt yourself - I know I did, and I still practice in front of a full length mirror to keep an eye on bad physical habits. This gets more important as I get older, and my body heals slower. The teacher thing is a real must for DB, especially in the beginning. After that, if you're playing well and staying healthy, it's more about whether you feel you need help doing what you're trying to do.

I bet you catch the fever and grow like a weed. Maybe you could become something like the Nigel kennedy of the bass world.

heh, yeah, i hear ya about the technical limitations. i look pretty silly when i approach a db now. still, though i have to admit i'm psyched about it. just gotta figure out the finances - might have to wait a few months to pull the trigger until i have the dough, depending on the instruments i find.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Sherry

Great advice. One distinction between DB and plank is that adding another string to a DB makes it work different mechanically. When you add a string the whole sound of the instrument changes -- often for the worse.

i was specifically wondering about that. didn't know if it was the generally accepted wisdom that an extra string would tend to affect the overall sound positively or negatively. something to think about.

Quote:

"Ah said it befoe but it baahs repeeting . . ."

Because you're gonna love the sound of that low E all by itself, JT.

heh as long as i can get it to bark properly.

mchildree · #18 08-12-2006, 09:35 AM

I was just about to mention you'd benefit from a trip over to Ronald Sachs. He's got a good selection of basses in various price ranges, and he's a super-nice and helpful guy as well. I'm hoping to come up for the ATL get together this month, and I can bring my New Standard for your perusal if you're interested.

**john turner** · #19 08-16-2006, 11:02 AM

that'd be awesome, man. i'd love to check it out.

Nadav · #20 08-16-2006, 11:34 AM

Glad to hear you're picking up the beast, JT. I recently bought a Wan Bernadel that you could definitely check out if you'd like. Here's the website: http://www.stringemporium.com/bernadel.htm

Here's another ATL place you can check out in addition to Ron Sachs: http://www.huthmakerviolins.com/

If you're wondering who I am, I came to visit when you had the ritter and jerzy for review.