Tired of Berklee, looking at NEC

[Snarf]

Hey folks,

So, I go to Berklee right now. I don't like it one bit. The administration is incompetent, the students are immature and beat their chests way more than is necessary, even by musician standards (by and large, not meaning YOU specifically if you're reading this and go to Berklee), the school has no focus, no direction, it's glitzy and glamorous in all the wrong ways. Basically, Berklee suckered me in with great advertising, and now that I'm nearing the end of my second year, I want out.

I'm thinking that I would relish the more conservative environment at NEC. I'm very straight, more academically-minded than the vast majority of people here. I think my personality would work way better at NEC. Am I on the right track with this kind of thinking?

Here's the thing: I've only been playing double bass for 13 months. HOWEVER, at this point I am playing consistently with some of the very best players at Berklee, and my playing has received plenty of compliments from the top and everywhere I've played. So I'm not hugely worried about that, but I've never actually played arco before. Which means hardcore shedding from now until the fall if I'm allowed to transfer that soon, or the spring if I can't get in earlier.

At this point, studying jazz isn't of huge importance to me. It's just a matter of developing my own voice further through my own efforts. What NEC can teach me is classical, which I REALLY want to learn, and I can also keep jazz going at the same time there, and with my contacts at Berklee. Also, the conservatory environment and the students it attracts looks like a much better situation for me. If NEC works out, I think I could get a great deal more out of it than I ever could at Berklee.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on my thoughts? Is it feasible to start at NEC next year, not having played arco? I tend to pick up instruments very fast (graduated from practice chanter to bagpipes in 6 months instead of the usual 2 years, can play pizz bass at a high level on par with just about any Berklee student), but I don't know what the bow actually involves. Anyway, tell me if I should go for it, or if I'm totally crazy.

[Jeremy Allen]

Hi,
I went to NEC and had plenty of friends at Berklee. If "Berserklee" is getting you down, sure, you may be a good candidate for a switch. Both schools have much to offer; NEC will give you the more typical college/conservatory experience, which is not to say it's "conservative" (the jazz program of course is great, but the amount of avant-whatever stuff happening is as impressive as at any other hip school).
But be warned: you may not have an easy time getting a lot of classical (arco) instruction at NEC. If you've only been playing for the amount of time you mention, I would think you would stand little chance of being admitted to the classical program with all of the other hardcore orchestra students; and if you get into the jazz program, your options for studying with a classical bass teacher will be much limited. It can be done, but when I was there they really discouraged me from doing so because the classical guys already had full studios and the jazz bass teachers were promised a certain number of full-time jazz students. You should know, however, that John Lockwood, one of the two jazz bass teachers there, has plenty of experience with the bow and has played professionally in orchestras in addition to his work as a bad mofo of a jazz player. (Can't you study with him at Berklee, too?)
As an alumn, I naturally think NEC is the superior school , but part of that is because my background is in the conservatory tradition of music schooling where you go and get your a** kicked learning to sight-sing in seven different clefs and playing music from 1000 years of the Western tradition; NEC does this, but it also has great jazz and "contemporary improvisation" programs which cover everything from Louis Armstrong to Peter Brotzmann to klezmer to Third Stream. Berklee has all kinds of different strengths (and a lot of classes/teachers I would love to have been exposed to), and the best jazz students there are as good as or better than those anywhere in the world. But I guess you know that since you go there...
The bottom line is, it is of course feasible for you to switch, but you should just go talk to the guys at NEC and get a feel for it. Call them up and see if you can get a minute to talk with Hankus Netsky (about the Contemporary Improv program, and he's also good because he used to chair the jazz department) and with Ken Schaphorst (chair of the jazz department). I think Allan Chase may be the single best person to talk to about studying at NEC; he went there, was head of the jazz program, and was some kind of Dean for awhile before he eased back into just teaching now (I think). Any of these three could help you out.
Good luck!

[Snarf]

Hmm, very interesting, thanks for the response. A couple questions:

What was your repertoire like going into NEC? Naturally, I have zero classical technique, and corresponding repertoire, but perhaps if I took a year or so off to study privately and build these two things up it would be more feasible to get classical instruction at NEC? I feel like that might be worth it, since if I do go to NEC, I want to get as much arco as I can get. The tradition aspect of it is so important to me, as I feel tradition is exactly what Berklee lacks, and what gives it a pervading feeling of incompetence.

Also, what kinds of scholarships do they offer? Problem is, I know I could only get one as a jazz player . . . that is, if they offer merit-based, which I don't know.

I'll have to talk to John Lockwood. I noticed that he was on the faculty list. Also, my current teacher is Oscar Stagnaro who also is at NEC, so I'll definitely be talking to him.

Man, I really feel like I got into classical far too late. I see a crossroads looming . . . .

Thanks again, by the way.

[anonymous8547j7d7b]

A year on DB and already on par with the best of them there?
You'll have to pardon my informed skepticism - but if I had $1 for every spurious claim like this i've heard about switching/doubling BG'ers...
(which is NOT to say it can't be done, i hasten to add)

Originally Posted by Snarf

...at this point I am playing consistently with some of the very best players at Berklee, and my playing has received plenty of compliments from the top and everywhere I've played. .

This may illustrate your point about being "suckered in" beautifully.
You seem to complain of fellow students struttin' & chest beatin' whilst indulging in a goodly portion of it yourself
Perhaps this is youthful over-exuberance on your part (I remember it well from my own experience) and/or perhaps the college has been a bit over-the-top with positive reinforcement. Either way, a change may not be for the better. I can't think of a nice touchy-feely way to put this - so i'll shoot from the hip. Your high estimation of your own abilities is possibly being nurtured by a positive environment & therefore remains unchallenged within yourself - could you handle moving to a potentially different culture and having your bubble burst? If you can, great. If not, you'll want outta the new place and back to Berklee PDQ.

[AZNBassist]

Originally Posted by jaydbass

A year on DB and already on par with the best of them there?
You'll have to pardon my informed skepticism - but if I had $1 for every spurious claim like this i've heard about switching/doubling BG'ers...
(which is NOT to say it can't be done, i hasten to add)



This may illustrate your point about being "suckered in" beautifully.
You seem to complain of fellow students struttin' & chest beatin' whilst indulging in a goodly portion of it yourself
Perhaps this is youthful over-exuberance on your part (I remember it well from my own experience) and/or perhaps the college has been a bit over-the-top with positive reinforcement. Either way, a change may not be for the better. I can't think of a nice touchy-feely way to put this - so i'll shoot from the hip. Your high estimation of your own abilities is possibly being nurtured by a positive environment & therefore remains unchallenged within yourself - could you handle moving to a potentially different culture and having your bubble burst? If you can, great. If not, you'll want outta the new place and back to Berklee PDQ.

+1

Though I must say that I've heard many things about Berklee, and some of the "musicians" from my school who have been accepted into Berklee have caused me to seriously question the kind of school Berklee is.

[Sam Sherry]

I went to NEC from 1979 to 1981. When I auditioned for the jazz program I had been playing DB for about six months. The audition for the jazz program called for playing jazz (no doy!) and I never picked up my bow during my audition.

I had always played in orchestras as a kid (on violin) and wanted to continue. I auditioned for the NEC Rep Symphony or whatever they called the "B" orchestra. I was accepted as Home Plate (last bass). Other jazz bassists talked about doing that but either they didn't follow through or didn't get in. It was a great experience. In addition to jazz studies I paid for outside legit lessons with a masters student. That too was a great experience.

I was always way down on the musical depth charts and my lack of social skills didn't help. But the beauty of that program then and apparently now is that there wasn't any second line or tenth line of teachers. Even dweebs like me studied with guys whose music we all know and love. Perhaps more importantly, I got to play with students who now are guys whose music we all know and love.

My later academic experience leaves me convinced that diligent, self-reliant students can build a quality educational experience in almost any environment. That said, it's a joy to get your ass kicked in a high-quality milieu and NEC was all that.

Good luck with your decision and your learning path.

[Michael Case]

I'd say if you feel the change would be good go for it. Even if you just use the audition as a test to see where your playing is at. My only other thought is don't fool yourself into thinking the grass will be greener. Music school is music school, music students will be the same in any setting. Also most music school settings have a culture that give the students who are mother f*****s on their instrument the "star treatment." Of course merit is always rewarded, but the culture always exists.

If I were in your place, I would question my own motives for these feelings. Sometimes we are motivated by really deeply hidden feelings that need to be dealt with sooner rather than later.

Either way you decide, enjoy it. Don't allow yourself to get soured on your situation and try to get all that you can from it.

[kontrabass]

With all due respect, I seriously doubt that you (or anyone) can gain admittance to NEC's classical program with only one year of "arco" experience. You'd be auditioning against some of the most talented young classical double bassists, many of whom have spent years under classical tutelage, learning the advanced repertoire and studying under the absolute best in the double bass world.

You can always learn classical bass (perhaps studying privately, somewhat like Sam did...Boston is THE place for music) as you gain your degreee, but to have that be the focus of your degree seems (to me at least...but what do I know?) a bit out of the question.

Keep your options open. You'll thank yourself later.

[Stan Haskins]

I'm a Berklee alum - I think alot of your complaints about the school are legitimate - but I think you can make the most of it over there if you decide to stick with it.

First of all (not trying to be mean) my bet is that you won't be accepted to NEC with your limited experience. But go for it - you never know. You should start talking to professors and students over there right away. It' scertainly pretty late to be applying to audition now, though.

Next step: make the most of the resources you have at Berklee (there has always been a great bass department there) If Dave Clarke is still there, he's a person who knows all about classical technique, solo and orchestral - he's a Yale alum, if I remember correctly - tell him I said hi if you speak to him. There are lots of others who have great classical technique - John Repucci, Rich Appleman, and Whit Brown are all great teachers who can take you through classical studies.

There are also many great conducting, composition and instrumental teachers throughout the school. However, Berklee is a place which forces you to be independent (because of its size). You have to go and find these people, and make connections.

Don't like the chest thumping? Ignore it.

Good luck! and keep us posted
Stan Haskins
(Berklee "Most Improved Bassist" 1996 - now there's an insulting award!)

[Jeremy Allen]

Ian,
My "rep" when auditioning for the master's program at NEC consisted of "Anthropology," "Stella By Starlight," and "Have You Met Miss Jones." I was, obviously, a jazz major there, not a classical bass major. I can reiterate what a couple of people have already said: you basically have no chance of getting admitted to the classical program at NEC with 13 months of experience on double bass and very little arco work. The kids going there have already been gunning for an orchestra career for some time by the time they get to college; they've played in orchestras, worked on all the excerpts, played the solo literature, and spent a lot of time with a teacher. But this should not discourage you: you don't want or need to be a classical bass major at a place like NEC in order to shore up technical issues and get a solid classical foundation--this can be done with any good teachers and a strong sense of stick-to-it-iveness (as in Sam Sherry's story--volunteer to be in the bass section of every little orchestra you can think of, and you'll find that people always need bassists and that you will learn a great deal).

Re: someone's disparaging comment on the quality of students at Berklee: it is true that there are a great many inexperienced musicians at Berklee, but this is because the mission of the school includes letting in pretty much anyone who applies. So there are, like, actual rank beginners going there (or at least this used to be the case). They pay full price, and then the school can afford to attract great musicians with nice scholarships. It ends up that, as I said, the top students at Berklee are as good as or better than those anywhere else. When I was in Boston, I remember one year that the majority of the students selected for the Monk Institute program (which is a pretty good barometer of the best of the best in college jazz students) came from Berklee: Massimo Biolcati on bass, Ferenc Nemeth on drums, Lionel Loueke on guitar, Cho something-or-other on piano. These guys are now playing with people like Kenny Werner and Herbie Hancock and making names for themselves. So there are in fact good musicians at Berklee...(hey, where's our own Marco Panascia to chime in?) I also think it's no coincidence that many of the best musicians at Berklee are international students (as were all of those people I mentioned above): Berklee does a really great job of recruiting (and paying for) strong talent from abroad, especially Europe and Japan.

[Snarf]

Ah, I thought you had gone as a classical student. My bad.

Okay, it's becoming obvious that classical studies in college are out, unless I take some significant time off and make practicing a full-time job. I'm going to NEC today to take the tour, and I'll be trying to focus on the jazz program. Another thing that makes the school attractive is that it's smaller (at least the jazz program is). Smaller is better, for me.

Anyway, I'll see what's what, and maybe I'll audition, maybe I'll stay at berklee, and maybe I'll even make the commitment and drop out of school for 3-4 years to study privately so that I can stand a chance as a classical student.

[Stan Haskins]

Originally Posted by Snarf

maybe I'll even make the commitment and drop out of school for 3-4 years to study privately so that I can stand a chance as a classical student.

Don't do it. Don't drop out. It's very easy to get accepted to Berklee, but very hard to graduate with a degree. You can focus on classical studies with one of the teachers at Berklee - they are no slouches. You can continue to study privately after school. Most serious players do. Don't drop out - a college degree is too valuable.

I'm saying this as a father - I would never be able to support my family without a college degree, and that's getting harder and harder. Get the degree, and make practice your full-time job while you can (that's what you're supposed to be doing while you're at school - Berklee or any other.) Don't give up on the degree.

Wait, did I remember to tell you not to drop out?

[BassBot]

Berklee does specialize in jazz and contemporary music. Obviously, it is not as formal as conservatory programs or even most music programs at traditional academic schools. If you're sure it'll make you happier to be at another school, then you should consider switching.

Before filling out all the applications and going through with the paperwork/audtions, I'd talk to current students at the schools you are looking at. Also, talk to the faculty. Tell them your qualms about Berklee. See what they say.

I wouldn't, however, expect a 180-degree change regardless of the school you choose. College, and music school in particular, are largely what you make of it. Most of what you get out of these places is social/networking. You meet other musicians; you get a chance to play with many different people. If method, arco technique and classical training is all you really desire, then you could take a private lesson every other week.

When thinking about what program you'd like, try to think about what you want to be doing after school. If you have only played a few years, you might not want a conservatory, where they churn out future orchestral members. Instead, you may want a school that also offers music technology, r music education, ethnomusicology, or even (gasp!) liberal arts.

If you're not really sure what you want out of music, I'd think about just going to a liberal arts, state or community college. You'll need any degree to get a decent job while you take a few years to figure it all out. You can always take private lessons and gig on the side. There are countless musicians who never went to music school (just ask Larry Grenadier).

[jmain]

Originally Posted by Stan Haskins

Don't do it. Don't drop out. It's very easy to get accepted to Berklee, but very hard to graduate with a degree. You can focus on classical studies with one of the teachers at Berklee - they are no slouches. You can continue to study privately after school. Most serious players do. Don't drop out - a college degree is too valuable.

I'm saying this as a father - I would never be able to support my family without a college degree, and that's getting harder and harder. Get the degree, and make practice your full-time job while you can (that's what you're supposed to be doing while you're at school - Berklee or any other.) Don't give up on the degree.

Wait, did I remember to tell you not to drop out?

I always wanted to go to Berklee. When I was in the Army, I used to carry around a little ad in my wallet. That mangled piece of paper meant hope and got me through some rough times. I regret not ever going, but I'm doing okay. Although I wish I were playing bass for a living, I like my job now.

Definitely don't just drop out. It seems you have the drive to make the best out of whatever situation you're in. I dropped out of college for 5 years to tour. The band broke up and I went back to college. It was way tougher, but I managed.

The degree is not just a piece of paper - although it may seem like that at times - it's a way of letting people know you're willing to work hard to accomplish your goals; and you probably learned something in the process.

Best of luck with your decision. Don't let egomaniacs and people with small....minds....sway you from your dreams. If you're passionate, hard-working and humble, there's a place for you.

[Alex Spradling]

Hasn't berklee completely changed their admissions policy? I thought i'd heard that they have mandatory auditions now, with sight reading and prepared pieces and everything you'd get at NEC or Mannes..

[Snarf]

Yeah, they have auditions now, but they're still letting in a lot of bad players. And it's still too big, too anonymous, and too lax a school. I went and took the NEC tour today. Half of the student body is grad students, which means a more mature, focused attitude. And there's only 750 students total, compared to Berklee's 3500 or so. People seemed to CARE there, whereas lots of people approach Berklee as a stepping stone to being a rock god, or a gold-record producer. Just the fact that rock and rnb music is part of the curriculum and taken seriously here gives me a bad feeling in my stomach.

What I want from music: some kind of living. I play in a band that's going on tour in China in the fall, I head a jazz trio that's starting to gig locally, I'm playing small musical productions, I write and produce/engineer on the side, and I've had private students on electric before. I know that being a jazz musician means having to diversify greatly to make a living. So that's my goal right now, to play and produce, write and teach. I want to dive into classical and get yet another skill set that I can apply to living as a musician. I know that that's going to take many years, and that's fine. But I know that a liberal arts or state school simply isn't for me.

[Aaron Saunders]

From what I've heard, the Berklee auditions are basically a formality.

That said, if you've got such a meteoric rise to stardom right around the corner, just drop out an audition for American Idol. At least there everyone will recognize your prodigious talent.

[Snarf]

Originally Posted by Aaron Saunders

From what I've heard, the Berklee auditions are basically a formality.

That said, if you've got such a meteoric rise to stardom right around the corner, just drop out an audition for American Idol. At least there everyone will recognize your prodigious talent.

Is someone feeling insecure?

[Jeff Guevin]

Snarf, meet Snark.

[Alex Spradling]

Originally Posted by Snarf

Yeah, they have auditions now, but they're still letting in a lot of bad players. And it's still too big, too anonymous, and too lax a school. I went and took the NEC tour today. Half of the student body is grad students, which means a more mature, focused attitude. And there's only 750 students total, compared to Berklee's 3500 or so. People seemed to CARE there, whereas lots of people approach Berklee as a stepping stone to being a rock god, or a gold-record producer. Just the fact that rock and rnb music is part of the curriculum and taken seriously here gives me a bad feeling in my stomach.

What I want from music: some kind of living. I play in a band that's going on tour in China in the fall, I head a jazz trio that's starting to gig locally, I'm playing small musical productions, I write and produce/engineer on the side, and I've had private students on electric before. I know that being a jazz musician means having to diversify greatly to make a living. So that's my goal right now, to play and produce, write and teach. I want to dive into classical and get yet another skill set that I can apply to living as a musician. I know that that's going to take many years, and that's fine. But I know that a liberal arts or state school simply isn't for me.

What is it you want out of a formal education? No matter where you go you will get exactly what you put in...Are you seriously going to rag on one of the finest music schools in the world? The list of top notch alumni from Berklee is staggering, obviously they do something right.

Are there a lot of idiots there? Man, there are a lot of idiots everywhere...if you keep your head straight and practice hard, you can do whatever you want.

Its not the school, its the student.