On Trolls, Anonymity, and the "Tone" of discussion on the Double Bass Forums

[5150]

OK, I am beaten. my confidence is torn and my feelings have been crushed. I was hoping to find comfort and validation in my opinions, since it is imprtant to do so....

So I leav you fine gentlemen with this:

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS:

1. THOU SHALT NOT SPEND THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS EACH YEAR ON AMPLIFIERS, PICKUPS, DI BOXES, ETC. TO TRY AND ACHIEVE A BASS SOUND MOST REAL BASSISTS ACHIEVE WITH THEIR HANDS.

2. THOU SHALT NOT MIMICK CATS WHEN YOU WALK BASS LINES: "MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW"...

3. THOU SHALT NOT WORSHIP ANY OTHER GOD, AS IN MARC JOHNSON, GARY PEACOCK, EDDIE GOMEZ, OR ANY OTHER DEMI GOD WHO PLAYS THE BASS LIKE A FAIRY GIRL.

4. THOU SHALT NOT MAKE A LIFE BY PLAYING HOLIDAY INN GIGS AND SAD WEDDINGS WHILE DRINKING ONE'S SELF INTO OBLIVION AND COMPLAIN ABOUT WHY YOU NEVER MADE IT OUT OF SKOKIE, ILL.

5. THOU SHALT NOT PURCHASE A CELLO IN HOPES OF BEING A "MELODIC" INSTRUMENT. IF IT DON'T WORK FOR RON CARTER, IT AIN'T GONNA WORK FOR YOU.

6. THOU SHALT NOT PLAY BASSES WITH MORE THAN 4 STRINGS. FRETLESS BASSES, ELECTRIC UPRIGHTS, 5 & 6 STRINGS BASSES ARE AN ABOMINATION. HEREBY THEY ARE TO BE KNOWN AS "POORLY TUNED GUITARS".

7. THOU SHALT NOT SLIDE AROUND AIMLESSLY LIKE A FAT WOMAN, COVERED IN CRISCO ON ICE WHILE SEARCHING FOR THE "LOST CHORD".

8. THOU SHALT NOT USE THE TERM "VISCERAL" WHEN DESCRIBING BASS PLAYERS, UNLESS REFERRING TO MICHAEL ANTHONY.

9. THOU SHALT NOT WORRY WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK ABOUT MUSIC, WHICH IS WHY CONTRIBUTING TO THESE STUPID FORUMS IS TIME WASTED AND BETTER SPENT IN THE PRACTICE ROOM.

10. THOU SHALT NOT GIVE A RAT'S ASS WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK. YOU ARE GROWN UPS, NOTICE HOW MANY PEOPLE DIDN'T RESPOND AND HONOR ME BY WORSHIPPING THEM. ANYONE WHO DID NOT LAUGH AT THIS IS TAKING THEMSELVES WAY TOO SERIOUSLY.

and I'm OUT this mutha fukka!!!



PEACE!

P.S. - I actually really like drew gress.

But in all seriousness, Gary Peacock can suck a nut.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Dave Peeples

this thread cleans up nicely. it's like it never happened, though i do miss TomSauter's less "inciteful" criticisms of alleged un-swinging bass masters...

Chris F, did you get that PM? just curious b/c my browser was being really finicky that day...

best wishes
Dave

Haven't gotten one from you so far, but will keep my eyes open.

I agree with DEMON as well about no topic being off-limits per se, but rather WAYS of obnoxiously pounding the same point over and over can be quite over-the-top.

[Eric Jackson]

Originally Posted by Crisp Fishjello

...WAYS of obnoxiously pounding the same point over and over can be quite over-the-top.

Yup.
Some of us out there are just in DESPERATE NEED of a recto-cranial extraction.
Biz as usual here. Nice job, Durrl.

[bassphase]

So I'm a little dismayed here. I thought 5150's posts were as annoying and intentionally inciteful as the rest of you but....
to ban him AND remove his posts is a little too Stalinesque for me or maybe Orwellian would be more accurate.



Bob

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by bassphase

So I'm a little dismayed here. I thought 5150's posts were as annoying and intentionally inciteful as the rest of you but....
to ban him AND remove his posts is a little too Stalinesque for me or maybe Orwellian would be more accurate.
Bob

I gotta stick up for Durrl on this, Bob. This guy was just trying to see how far he could push.
If the Mods let stuff like this go on, word would get out to all the jerks and trolls that going over to the DB side and kicking folks around is open season.
IMHO, Good job Durrl!

[Sam Sherry]

Originally Posted by bassphase

So I'm a little dismayed here. I thought 5150's posts were as annoying and intentionally inciteful as the rest of you but to ban him AND remove his posts is a little too Stalinesque for me or maybe Orwellian would be more accurate.

This is not a case where "some are more equal than others." Nor is it a case of censorship based on content. What the guy said is his business. I agreed with some of it (especially the stuff about how Marc Johnson sounds like Michael Anthony from Van Halen . . . oh right, that's been excised). But the guy was a jerk, on purpose. Chris said, "Be civil or leave" and the guy said he'd rather leave.

You'd be saddened to see how few bad apples it takes to spoil a barrel. Look at how quickly a few elbows killed the boards at JazzTimes.com and BranfordMarsalis.com The bottom line is that anonymous blather is responsibility-free and attracts the irresponsible.

TB/DB has value because it is an oasis of civil discussion. It will stay that way as long as people in this "community" (including the moderators) make provocateurs unwelcome, while maintaining open minds about civil disagreement. Fine call, Chris, not that you need me to say so.

[Eric Jackson]

Bassphase, did you catch 5150's last post before it was flushed? That was the one where he gave us his 'Ten Commandments', all in upper case, and referrred to us all as M*F*s. He was undoubtedly quite pleased with himself.

Dude's got issues. He was bent on "educating" us. IMO he has no place here, he deserved to be banned. Deleting his more obnoxious posts was a judgement call, and I too support Chris' judgement. Tolerating such self- serving drivel would soon result in this board deteriorating into someplace I personally wouldn't wanna hang.

[Damon Rondeau]

I think it was Ray that once used the analogy of this place as having a "favorite bar" kinda vibe. People come here because they like it.

Personally, I wouldn't waste my valuable time with a forum that was suffering from too many trolls and spammers. Life is too short, especially once you have left your "nyahh nyahh" days of youth long behind. So I agree that we have to protect this bar, this hangout and club for bass players, unless we want to see the place desecrated with graffiti and and hair pill ads.

As for whether banning is a good thing, I can say it honestly pains me to see it happen. But what are you gonna do when you've got dorks wanting to break into your nice hang and wreck it, as they have demonstrably done elsewhere? You do what any bar owner or business owner would do and has the right to do: you ban them.

I was kinda looking forward to 5150 being the real thing and having some strong opinions to throw around this place. Woulda shaken things up some, don't you think? Instead he turned out to be another low rent Prankster with a virtual spray bomb. Sad to say, we are much better off without him.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Gentlemen, thank you for your commentary, and I mean ALL of it - not just the "nice job, Chris" posts, but also the dissention. I have split and merged input from various threads so that we begin with 5150's ultimate response to my request to either tone it down, identify himself, or leave. While I am not particularly proud of the way in which I made that request, I stand by the intent of it. I'm not sure if I overstepped my bounds in asking what I asked, but that's where I'm at right now, and if the verdict from Paul is that I went too far, then I guess I need to move on.

Here's the deal (as I have already explained to several of you via PM): My life is very busy these days, and frankly, more wonderful than it has ever been. Work with great players seems plentiful at the moment, lots of rekkids are being recorded, family life is great, my son is beautiful and precocious, and the full time school gig is what it is...in other words, all in all I have no complaints. I also enjoy staying connected to the community that has developed here in the DB forums, conversing with all you guys, old friends and fresh new faces alike. I've put a lot of work into trying to mold these forums into a thing that (hopefully) makes sense the minute a newbie logs on for the first time, and many people have taken the trouble to thank me for setting up the newbie FAQ threads (Which i had a lot of help with, and which I could still use more help, BTW). The idea behind all of this is that most people who come here will find a great deal of information that is readily available and easy to access, and that once they access it, they will be able to dive right into the hang with the regulars and hopefully either teach us something, learn something from us, or both. In short, I'd like for these forums to basically run themselves with as little moderator intervention as possible..."small government", if you will.

But in order for this to work, there have to be rules, and they have to be upheld in order for them to have any meaning. TB has a set of very general rules which are a wonderful start, and I think we can all agree that we've been through some serious growing pains with the commercial user policy, which has cost us some valuable members, and the continued goodwill of some others who don't like it. What I would like to propose is a "formal" announcement of what has been my policy from the beginning: namely, that anonymous posting is fine down here in DB UNLESS folks who post anonymously decide to become combative, disrespectful, or seem to encourage "flame thread" behavior. At that point, I reserve the right to step in and state that I refuse to babysit an anonymous poster who seems to want to express strong opinions without personally standing behind them and taking "accountability" for them by signing their name to them. In my opinion, anonymous flaming is an entirely cowardly, chicken**** practice, and I simply refuse to view it as "acceptable". If that means that I'm too far gone over to the "right wing fascist" side of things (something I honestly can't ever remember being called before in my life, but that's another story that doesn't belong in DB), then that's cool, I'll move on as moderator and let someone with more patience take a turn. If not, I'm happy to stay and make the job as "hands off" as I can possibly manage...partly because I'm way too busy to do otherwise, but mostly because it seems like the right thing to do.

That said, I gotta get to work and sign off. As I said, I appreciate the input from both side of the issue, and I hope it keeps coming. And no disrespect to those with screen names who don't reveal who they are - I know that some of you have security reasons for maintaining them - but I must say that when I see a post by somebody who signs their name to it, it strikes me as more authentic somehow than a post that is anonymous. That said, people with screen names who have shown a consistent standard of helpful and reasonable behavoir over an extended period of time gain credibility with each post. Maybe I'm just old school that way, I dunno.

Time to work, fellas.

[Steve Killingsworth]

Originally Posted by Sam Sherry

TB/DB has value because it is an oasis of civil discussion. It will stay that way as long as people in this "community" (including the moderators) make provocateurs unwelcome, while maintaining open minds about civil disagreement.

Well said. I don't think those of us who have never moderated realize what a difficult balancing act it is to allow a "lively" discussion and not allow it to get out of hand.

Originally Posted by bassphase

. . . to ban him AND remove his posts is a little too Stalinesque for me or maybe Orwellian would be more accurate

It would be cause for concern if folks were banned or comments deleted because of an unpopular opinion. However, I just don't see that happening. Over the last 3 years, I have seen several folks banned and numerous posts deleted. In every instance, it was either 1) clear that the poster's primary purpose was to provoke everyone, or 2) the thread degenerated into name-calling. I have NEVER seen someone banned who did not receive repeated polite warnings or requests to clean up their act. This thread's origin is a prime example of that.

I may not always agree with their actions, but I greatly appreciate the effort our past and present moderators (especially Chris) make to maintain our little corner of the web.

[msw]

I can't imagine a more dedicated, fair and above all, intelligent moderator. The way you have handled this last situation serves as a perfect example. Please keep up the great work and the high-standards!

[John Sprague]

Two thumbs up Chris! 100% support from me, on all of it.

[Eric Jackson]

Originally Posted by emessdubya

I can't imagine a more dedicated, fair and above all, intelligent moderator. The way you have handled this last situation serves as a perfect example. Please keep up the great work and the high-standards!

+1.

[bassguitar]

Holy Crap! Who knew there'd be so much drama in the DB forums! Maybe I should hang out there more often ...

[john turner]

sounds like this donut fashioned himself ira coleman, or someone similar, based on his "gigs".

odd, since the only post on the internet with the same email addy is from someone named justin v. and is on a baseball forum, discussing bat weights.

[godoze]

Originally Posted by bassguitar

Holy Crap! Who knew there'd be so much drama in the DB forums! Maybe I should hang out there more often ...

ok.. but just be careful...

[T-Bal]

Originally Posted by msw

I can't imagine a more dedicated, fair and above all, intelligent moderator. The way you have handled this last situation serves as a perfect example. Please keep up the great work and the high-standards!

ditto that.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by john turner

sounds like this donut fashioned himself ira coleman, or someone similar, based on his "gigs"..

Cept Ira plays with kinda low action and has a more 80s style "amp" sound that would have had this guy questioning his masculinity...

[Chris Fitzgerald]

As it turns out, I'm pretty sure that this particular troll was a drummer anyway. Any line on which drummers play with his list?

Anyway, the main point of this thread is to see how the general DB population feels about the idea of anonymous posters getting less leeway from the mods if they become combative than "named" users. Please feel free to chime in on this issue, since it will help me decide what I need to do. Thanks!

[TomSauter]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

As it turns out, I'm pretty sure that this particular troll was a drummer anyway. Any line on which drummers play with his list?

Anyway, the main point of this thread is to see how the general DB population feels about the idea of anonymous posters getting less leeway from the mods if they become combative than "named" users. Please feel free to chime in on this issue, since it will help me decide what I need to do. Thanks!

I'm not sure if it really matters, because if someone wants to remain anonymous and you ask them to use their name, they'll probably just make up a name.