Tuning Question

[LeslieD]

I've tuned my bass the same way since I was 11--by listening to an A, tuning my A string and then using a bow and harmonics to check/adjust the other strings. I have an electric tuner, that I use about once every 2 years.

I'm lending my plywood bass to someone for them to play around with--but not a bow (since I need and use both of mine). I'll give him my electric tuner too, and that's all he'll really have to figure out if he's in tune.

Here's my question: If you used the tuner for each of your strings separately (and get them "perfectly" tuned), does this mean the instrument isn't actually in tune with itself? Would it be obvious that something was awry?

And: what's the best method for tuning a bass w/o a bow (and what the heck do all those electric bass players do!).

[bassdogEmer]

Hi - thats a great question. I have often wondered this and have settled on the idea that it's better to tune your instrument to itself. In other words - get a strong A or D pitch from a tuner or another musician and tune the rest of the bass to that note. My main method for tuning is to play all the octave harmonics and listen to the fourths - I like tuning off of those becasue it's easy to hear they are not perfect fourths and also easy hear when other cats are noodling on there instruments. Hope this helps.

[neal davis]

I always tune to a chord G major all the good extensions are there to

[TheGrayBassGuy]

You're actually more in tune if you tune all of the strings separately, because then you're closer to equal temperment or whatever it's called. In fact with harmonics, I think you're not even in any kind of temperment because you're basing your tuning off of notes that aren't really in tune to begin with. I could try to get into the science of it here, but thinking about it gives me a headache.

There really isn't any reasonable way to get the bass perfectly in tune when you're given just one note, but you can get pretty darn close with harmonics.

[mcnaire2004]

This is very interesting. I feel that my strings resonate better when I tune it to itself. When I tune my strings separately they aren't in tune with its self and I feel like I am "out of place".

TheGrayBassGuy, I honestly would like you to go into the science of it or point me to a book or website that can.

[PaulCannon]

The harmonics are inherently out of tune. It's best not to tune the bass to them, but only rely on them for "ballparking" when necessary.

[nickbass]

I find taking one reference note then tuning to yourself with harmonics gives the best bass sound and is perfect for Orchestral playing. If playing with instruments at fixed tempered pitch eg in a piano trio, I find it better to tune my open strings to the piano (as long as it is well-tuned!). That way, although the resonance is compromised, my open strings will always be in tune and I can adjust to nasty tempered piano pitch with stopped notes! If you tune to yourself and try to play with a piano your open strings will always be very slightly out of tune and your ear may demand that you avoid them completely. Very tiring!
Nick

[drurb]

Originally Posted by TheGrayBassGuy

You're actually more in tune if you tune all of the strings separately, because then you're closer to equal temperment or whatever it's called. In fact with harmonics, I think you're not even in any kind of temperment because you're basing your tuning off of notes that aren't really in tune to begin with. I could try to get into the science of it here, but thinking about it gives me a headache.

You are basically correct. If you tune each string "perfectly" with a tuner, then the instrument is actually "perfectly" in tune with the well-tempered scale. When you tune one string and use harmonics, you will be slightly out of tune with that scale. The reason is a follows. Let's say you have the G-string "perfectly" in tune. Now, you hit the harmonic D at the heel of the neck (the fingered D). That harmonic is a perfect fifth (plus an octave) up from the open G string. Now, suppose you match that note perfectly to the harmonic on the D string lying at the fingered G. That D is two octaves up from the open D string. You will end up tuning your D string based on a perfect and not a well-tempered fifth. On the well-tempered scale octaves are perfect but the other intervals are not ideal integer ratios.

So what's the error if you tune by harmonics? It is quite small. You'd be hard-pressed to be that accurate in the course of playing. If you want to see the effect, do the following. Tune you G string with a tuner. Now play that D harmonic. The tuner will tell you that it is slightly sharp. Why? Because (ignoring the octave) the D harmonic represents a perfect fifth at a ratio of 1.5 while the well-tempered fifth is 1.4983. So the tuner "expects" that D to sound ever so slightly flatter than the harmonic.

Now, the question becomes whether you want to be tuned to the well-tempered or the "just" scale. Take a look here and here.

[rprowse]

Well said (again), Drurb. Good explanation.
I tend to tune my double bass both ways (harmonics & open strings ((or octave harmonic)) to piano or tuner). Then I make tiny adjustments to satisfy my ear. I think my tuning is pretty good because (on my fretted bass guitars) it always annoys me if the intonation is a whisker out. This is not very scientific, but is realistic for playing situations. I hope that makes sense.

[drurb]

This is a follow-up to my post above (#8). Suppose you have all four of your strings tuned perfectly to the well-tempered scale. Now you go to play the A in first position on the G string. What A are you going to play? Will you play a well-tempered A that is a perfect octave above the well-tempered A to which your A string is tuned or will you play an A that is a perfect fifth above your D string? Well, if you want to hit the open D and that fingered A together, you'll probably go for the perfect fifth because when you hit that two-note chord as a perfect fifth, that 3/2 frequency-ratio sounds very pleasing.

Finally, if you are going to tune your bass by harmonics so that you achieve "just" rather than well-tempered ratios, it matters where you start! If you start with the G string tuned to a well-tempered G, then all the other strings will be slightly off the well-tempered scale. Orchestras typically take A-440 as the start. If you do that, then your A string matches the well-tempered A and, if you tune via harmonics, none of the other strings will exactly match well-tempered tuning.

Are we having fun yet?

[TheGrayBassGuy]

^Exactly why I didn't want to explain it. It just ends up getting really confusing.

I did end up doing the math tuning with harmonics, and here are the results:

The E ends up being .05 Hz sharp, the A exactly in tune, the D .09 Hz flat, and the G .23 Hz flat.

Unfortunately, my calculator with the log function is out of batteries, so I can't figure out the differences in cents, which would be much more useful.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by TheGrayBassGuy

^Exactly why I didn't want to explain it. It just ends up getting really confusing.

I did end up doing the math tuning with harmonics, and here are the results:

The E ends up being .05 Hz sharp, the A exactly in tune, the D .09 Hz flat, and the G .23 Hz flat.

Unfortunately, my calculator with the log function is out of batteries, so I can't figure out the differences in cents, which would be much more useful.

Those calculations do seem correct and I assume that you started with a well-tempered A and based the calculations on using harmonic fifths. The differences are about 2 cents. Two cents difference is inaudible.

That's my 2-cents worth-- sorry, I couldn't resist.

[Tbeers]

I can appreciate there's fancy math behind this. But there's one thing I would mention about tuning our instrument.

Let's say you play a fingered A on the D string. The open A string on your bass should start vibrating, which is a good thing. That's resonance, right? Or does it have another term.... In any event, I find that when I tune the strings to each other, rather than each string to an electric tuner, I get a better resonance between different strings etc. The sound of the bass seems to open up when the strings are in really excellent tune with each other.

So while a 2 cent difference in theory means nothing to my ear, I would contend that a small difference like that could absolutely mean something to my bass. If you get what I mean....

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Tbeers

I can appreciate there's fancy math behind this. But there's one thing I would mention about tuning our instrument.

Let's say you play a fingered A on the D string. The open A string on your bass should start vibrating, which is a good thing. That's resonance, right? Or does it have another term.... In any event, I find that when I tune the strings to each other, rather than each string to an electric tuner, I get a better resonance between different strings etc. The sound of the bass seems to open up when the strings are in really excellent tune with each other.

So while a 2 cent difference in theory means nothing to my ear, I would contend that a small difference like that could absolutely mean something to my bass. If you get what I mean....

Your reported experience echoes that of another poster to this thread. Given the very, very small deviations between "just" and well-tempered tuning for our strings, it is difficult for me to understand how that makes a practical difference in what you hear and in the sympathetic vibration you describe.

Now, even if your bass had each string tuned in well-tempered fashion, the degree to which the open A string vibrates when you hit the fingered A on the D depends on the correspondence between those two As. That is, if you finger a well-tempered A on the D-string (sounds risque!), it will be precisely one octave above your open A and the open A will resonate. This, in and of itself, does not depend on whether you tuned the strings to each other unless one believes that the other open strings also contribute. If that is true then it would matter whether those other strings are tuned in "perfect" or well-tempered fourths. Again, it's difficult for me to understand how the little they contribute could also depend upon whether they are tuned within a fraction of a Hz.

[mcnaire2004]

When I was in middle school a visiting professional violinist said that when you play a note that note is played in every octave possible on the instrument that all contributes to the octave you played.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by mcnaire2004

When I was in middle school a visiting professional violinist said that when you play a note that note is played in every octave possible on the instrument that all contributes to the octave you played.

I think this was a crude way of speaking about overtones. That's another matter.