What is Improvisation?

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by D McCartney

When you sit down at the piano and make up a new melody or write a song, are you improvising?

Very slowly - and when you are improvising live at a gig - you are composing very quickly!!

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by D McCartney

When you sit down at the piano and make up a new melody or write a song, are you improvising?

I would argue yes, but when we talk about jazz improvisation we usually mean making up melodies in context of a live performance of some particular song.

I think the notion that jazz improvisation must occur "McGyver style" is pretty darn popular...that it's not about transcending Western harmony and other more philosophically challenging ideas, but that musicians display their ability to sing lines across progressions that at the same time support and honor the song's established melody.

I think in classical music, the most respected and interesting cadenzas do this too.

It sort of makes sense in the big scheme, even with jazz. As musicians or aspiring musicians, we spend hours, days, months, years to become proficient with the technical aspects of playing or singing. Personal growth isn't really about inventing a new instrument or way of expressing song, it's about conforming to rich traditions that have also been growing and evolving for centuries.

But I still think someone like Ornette Coleman offers something compelling to us, that by playing not exclusively to tradition and historical musical achievement but to the philosophical contradictions and paradoxes of musical understanding also, it may be possible that we can hear and interact with valuable aspects of human expression that tradition and history may have suppressed or subverted...perhaps inadvertently.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Mike Crumpton

I propose that what started out as playing without prepared music became called improvisation and then people analysed the meaning of the word and it became an ideal to be aspired to.

I don't think so - if we're talking about Jazz, then there is a clear line and history - so in New Orleans -style Jazz, the band would play a tune and a clarinet, for example would play an improvised counter-melody and it developed from there.

I'm not sure that many of the Jazz greats always cared - or top players do now - they will play what they think is right at the time to try to sound good by their own standards, connect with the audience and sell some cds to remind people how much they enjoyed it.

If you're saying they didn't care about improvising - then I think you're wrong - from the Bebop era on - Jazz was all about improvisation and it was a crucial part of the music -
Bebop wouldn't be Bebop without improvisation!!

Many a thread here has sugested if you play good the audience will come round - I'm not sure I believe that - I've seen jazz fans walk out of gigs becuase they weren't prepared to listen t something they found alien.

Agreed 100% - that's what I was talking about !

If the audience doesn't matter - as it won't for people developing all new ideas - then you're not performing and great performances are great because someone else said so. t's back to integrity again - just what do you want to achieve in a jazz performance - how do you know it's good? Becuase of feedback from the audience or the band tell you it was?

Err ..into dodgy territory here - but, I think you can decide, fairly objectively, how good a performer is as an improvisor - things like depth of understanding, variety of melodic/harmonics ideas, response to the situation, great ears etc. etc.

But if there really is no audience for what you want to play - and you are not actualy engaging anybody - then maybe you are "babbling", rather than saying something!!??

[Pcocobass]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

In my study of free improvisation over the last decade plus of listening to and playing with many of the masters of free improvised music from many periods and cultures I have learned that great improvisors do not play licks. They use pre-existing compositional material selected and and shaped in the moment. When I played with Cecil Taylor he reacted to everything I played with selections of his well known vocabulary That would fit with what I was doing.

I think it is a myth Improvisors do not have their own music and that we invent everything in the moment.
Instead we draw from our compositional resovoir in the moment and adjust our sounds and material to the situation at hand as well as being open to genuinely new sounds, which still come surprisingly regularly.
Where improvisation lies is in how flexible your material is and and in the wit of your decisions in moment.

I really like this post and I've experienced this personally. I think there truly is a reservoir that we develop by interalizing great music by transcribing, listening and loving the music. For me, in many playing situations I find that I can't tap into that reservoir. Sometimes I'm not in the right headspace but I've realized that it's usually because of the musical setting I'm in.

It seems like every time I'm playing with great musicians I have very little trouble getting into the reservoir and using all the stuff I've learned thus far to make a truly improvised statement. There definately is a spiritual component here so I don't want to make it all a head game. Sometimes if the vibe is right it seems like I can do no wrong. I'm sure everyone here has experienced this in their time. But in my experience usually if I'm playing with a great band (especially a great rhythm section) it's easy to make a real improvised statement.

This is a great thread and I think a lot of points made here are valid. There very well may be no definate answer but it's a great discussion!

Regards,
Pete

[Mike Crumpton]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Bebop wouldn't be Bebop without improvisation!!

oops - and I thought it was all about chord scale theory and the be-bop scale

Originally Posted by Pcocobass

But in my experience usually if I'm playing with a great band (especially a great rhythm section) it's easy to make a real improvised statement.

+1 and it can be one of those catch 22 situations - how do you get to paly with great players? - play great - how do you play great? - play with great players.

But for me, some tunes and styles bring out the best in me and I feel inspired and other things are so so. I think this applies to a lot of players. We can be true to the tradition, to learning or to freedom but above all I sugest that to create fulfilling imporvisation you are best doing it be being true to yourself.

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by Mike Crumpton

oops - and I thought it was all about chord scale theory and the be-bop scale

How about the chromatic scale?

[Pcocobass]

Originally Posted by Mike Crumpton

+1 and it can be one of those catch 22 situations - how do you get to paly with great players? - play great - how do you play great? - play with great players.

This is very true. That's why it is important to place yourself in the presence of great players. This way they will get to know you and you them. It is equally important to see how the greats conduct themselves on and off the bandstand.

It's also good that other bassists know you're on the scene. You never know who may recommend you for a great gig. Some of the best gigs I've got have been through direct recommendation by one of my bass teachers, even guys I only took one lesson from.

And sometimes you just get lucky. But usually not.

Oh, and it goes without saying that you must have your sh*t together before anything else.

[Bruce Lindfield]

That's why I go to Jazz Summerschool (24th July!!), as there, it is possible to play with the tutors, who are some of the best British Jazz pros - nowhere else would I get to play with anybody anywhere near this standard and be really stretched!

One of my best memories is when our tutor for the week,who is a great alto player, (who has played with Paul Motian and other Jazz "greats") launched into a standard with just the drummer in the class and me - he went on to play about 30 choruses at high tempo - with me hanging on for grim death - I was really stretched then!!