Where does one get the illegal Real Books?

bopeuph · #1 03-25-2008, 01:44 AM

I have volume 1, but it's only because I found it laying around somewhere for a straight week and it was in really bad condition. I just printed up the missing pages from the CD, and had me a new book.

But I would like volume 2. I don't know who prints these up. It would cost me about 60 dollars to print it up from the CD, and after browsing the titles on the Hal Leonard legal version, it appears they have taken out tunes. So, I'm just wondering, where does one find a copy of the original?

Nick

Sam Sherry · #2 03-25-2008, 08:08 AM

What, you mean the one that steals the work of all those composers?

Why would you, a creative artist, want to steal from other creative artists?

Marc Piane · #3 03-25-2008, 09:43 AM

I agree with Sam. The funny thing is that I bet some of the people whose work was 'stolen' own that book.

I think Hal Leonard ran them out of business.

milomo · #4 03-25-2008, 10:19 AM

Those books suck anyway. Half the tunes have partially to completely wrong changes, and the other half are missing vital parts of the tune, like intros, endings and shout-choruses.

Marc Piane · #5 03-25-2008, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milomo

Those books suck anyway. Half the tunes have partially to completely wrong changes, and the other half are missing vital parts of the tune, like intros, endings and shout-choruses.

...and that.

The real problem with ANY book is that you can only communicate so much through a chart no matter how correct. If you are going to try to play standards I think it is essential to visit several great recordings. iTunes is a savior for this.

Eublet · #6 03-25-2008, 10:23 AM

But it's still what you are likely to see in many settings, and the songs will be played with the wrong changes and all. I like the Hal Leonard books, although they are missing lots of songs. If everyone would just use them then it would be all good.

bopeuph · #7 03-25-2008, 10:28 AM

The thing I noticed is, if it's in those books, it's the standard way of playing them. Tunes originally in different keys, different changes, etc. I was playing with a really good guitar player and we were doing In a Sentimental Mood. In the bridge, I finished the first phrase of the melody, and he goes "why didn't you play that quarter note triplet line?" The only reason he said that was because it was in the Real Book. It's not in the melody, though. I think it was a line Duke played and it ended up being transcribed.

I think that's what we're up against. Besides, I also like the fake books in case someone calls a tune I don't know. I hate not being able to play a tune because I don't know it.

Nick

Marc Piane · #8 03-25-2008, 10:37 AM

You gotta make every tune your own. Charts, regardless of how correct, are just guideline IMHO. Listen to a bunch of versions of the same tune by 'the greats' and you will hear what I am talking about.

Your guitar player friend sounds a little close-minded.

bopeuph · #9 03-25-2008, 11:28 AM

I agree. I am learning as many tunes as I can.

You know, the jamming shows he's open minded, but closed at the same time. When I went to school, I learned a few different scales that could be used for a chord. His philosophy is there is just one, and it depends on the key. The funny thing is, I was originally taught by someone who really is closed minded, and this "one scale" idea seems more close minded, but at the same time, it makes more sense.

I just think he said that because that's the only way he knows the tune. Maybe he's only heard the tune like that and seen it in the real book like that. And I guess when you know as many tunes as he does, you're bound to be stuck in a way with a few of them.

Nick

milomo · #10 03-25-2008, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fingers

...and that.

The real problem with ANY book is that you can only communicate so much through a chart no matter how correct. If you are going to try to play standards I think it is essential to visit several great recordings. iTunes is a savior for this.

Absolutely. And what goes hand in hand with that is that since so many "real books guys" only play what they see on the page, they don't even know that what they're playing is at worst wrong, or at best a tiny fraction of what is possible with that or any tune. They mistake the paper for the music. The music is the music, the chart is just a pretty picture.

bopeuph · #11 03-25-2008, 12:03 PM

Funny thing is, I play a occasionally with this decent tenor player going through college. His problem is, he has to read everything he plays. I think the only thing he can play without a lead sheet is the blues. I keep trying to tell him that he needs to get away from that, but he's at a community college right now, where he's the best jazzer in the school, and everyone there uses the word "can't." So, he keeps telling me he can't get tunes in his head.

I couldn't see that problem, and as long as he's the bandleader, I guess he's fine. I don't think anyone would want to hire him with that crutch.

Nick

milomo · #12 03-25-2008, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bopeuph

Funny thing is, I play a occasionally with this decent tenor player going through college. His problem is, he has to read everything he plays. I think the only thing he can play without a lead sheet is the blues. I keep trying to tell him that he needs to get away from that, but he's at a community college right now, where he's the best jazzer in the school, and everyone there uses the word "can't." So, he keeps telling me he can't get tunes in his head.

I couldn't see that problem, and as long as he's the bandleader, I guess he's fine. I don't think anyone would want to hire him with that crutch.

Nick

I hear you. I had the same problem, only difference is I had Joe Lovano as a teacher, and while we were playing together in my lessons (me on tenor, him on drums), he would "accidentally" loose his grip on a stick when I f*#ked up and didn't memorize a tune he told me to. Ah, the motivational skills of the jazz elite!

bopeuph · #13 03-25-2008, 12:35 PM

Niiiiiice. That's pretty funny.

Nick

Marc Piane · #14 03-25-2008, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milomo

The music is the music, the chart is just a pretty picture.

Love it. I'm gonna have to use that one.

bopeuph · #15 03-25-2008, 02:05 PM

Rich Matteson used to say something like that. With all music. On, paper, it's just a graph. You bring the music to life by playing what's on that graph.

jgbass · #16 03-25-2008, 07:01 PM

I am trying to get away from using real books. My teacher does not recommend it, and invariably, when I have a real book chart in front of me, it is wrong in some way. It deters me developing my ear anyway. I used to play in a group with an excellent pianist. Problem is, he couldn't even play the blues without a chart in front of him. It was hard to get his attention because he was always staring at the chart.

I have learned from really pro jazz players who teach, and there just seems to be right ways of playing a tune that all these folks know. It may change in various locations, but there is some kind of understanding everyone has about how songs are played. You will not learn this from a book. You will learn it from other players, teachers, and maybe at jam sessions as well. What is in the real book does not matter that much.

The biggest problem I see with real books is that players get so stuck in these books. They stare at the pages, they do not communicate with the people they are playing music with. No understanding of how similar tunes are is developed that would make is easier to play any tune, even on the fly. It inhibits ear development. At most gigs, something is going to happen where you are just going to have to play a tune you may not know. Better to develop your ear.

Now there are all these discussions, in one group I jam with that is stuck on real books about which real book to use. No one can agree and it is a mess. And, then complaints about tunes being in different keys, and some cannot play anything by memory or figure it out as it is played. Then there are complaints about what is no longer in the real book. It just all takes away from playing.

Instead of worrying about real books, develop your ear, and learn from the recordings by original artists. Figure out that the basis of most jazz tunes is ii V I and/or blues patterns and/or rhythm changes. If you are learning, for example, Bye Bye Blackbird, nothing can replace learning the nuance of Mile's trumpet solo played on bass or other recordings of the tune. And, learn them in different keys. Its good for your ear. Study with a local jazz pro and you may get the information on the right changes used in your geographic area.

bopeuph · #17 03-25-2008, 08:43 PM

Of course, my goal is to be along the lines of the local old guys that can show up to a gig without a fake book and know even the most obscure tune that I have never heard of.

The way I learn tunes is to follow the lead sheet with a good recording, learn the recording more than the lead sheet, then compare it to another classic recording. I bring the fake book to gigs in case the (almost guaranteed) occasion comes up when someone calls a tune I don't know. I don't have to fish around for the chords for a few choruses, or even more if I didn't get it. Problem is, not every tune is in one fake book. The best answer is to learn as many tunes as I can, but until then, I figure that a fake book is a necessary evil.

Nick

Dave Martin · #18 03-25-2008, 09:23 PM

Something that is great for your ears (and your head) is a leader who calls tunes in keys that aren't in the Real Book: I went to hear some friends the other night, and they played Girl From Ipanema in D flat. It was VERY cool - and just thinking about playing it there instead of in F opened up a couple of new lines of thought about the tune...

jgbass · #19 03-26-2008, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bopeuph

Of course, my goal is to be along the lines of the local old guys that can show up to a gig without a fake book and know even the most obscure tune that I have never heard of.

The way I learn tunes is to follow the lead sheet with a good recording, learn the recording more than the lead sheet, then compare it to another classic recording. I bring the fake book to gigs in case the (almost guaranteed) occasion comes up when someone calls a tune I don't know. I don't have to fish around for the chords for a few choruses, or even more if I didn't get it. Problem is, not every tune is in one fake book. The best answer is to learn as many tunes as I can, but until then, I figure that a fake book is a necessary evil.

Nick

Nick,

Sounds like you have a good plan. I do essentially the same. I also play music sometimes with those old guys who can play just about anything. Once in a while, I just totally fake it on a tune too or test my ability on how I learned the tune. I have to be able to close the real book and trust that it will turn out ok, and that part of my brain will kick in and guide me to the right changes, etc. Kind of like diving off a cliff, I guess. My teacher also asks me to close the book, and/or says something like, well, let's play this tune in another key. Moment of terror, but its great practice.

bopeuph · #20 03-26-2008, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Martin

Something that is great for your ears (and your head) is a leader who calls tunes in keys that aren't in the Real Book: I went to hear some friends the other night, and they played Girl From Ipanema in D flat. It was VERY cool - and just thinking about playing it there instead of in F opened up a couple of new lines of thought about the tune...

That's a good tune to practice transposing on, since it's fairly simple. I did it in some strange key a while back, and it was the bridge that was throwing me off. I got it after a few choruses, though. My goal is to get it right the first time, though.

Nick