Why Are Older Bassists Disallowed in Competitions and Mock Auditions?

[bassdblr]

I was just looking at the current ISB newsletter. Page 3 headlines: D'Addario Sponsors Mock Audition. Lemur Music hosted its first-ever mock audition.... One thing not mentioned is that one couldn't be more than 22, maybe 26 years old to participate. Ouch! I could have had benefit from an audition experience, but I am sure not 22.

Page 5, Entry Form for 2007 ISB Double Bass Competition. Well, count me out, there's a 31 year old age limit.

Age discrimination seems to be a trend with many competitions. Why does someone need to be in their teens to early 30's to have an interest in competition? I've seen many of these kinds of annoucements with age requirements.

Does not make me look favorably on any of these companies and organizations that sponsor any of these.

[PoorPlayer]

I don't know. I can only guess. Perhaps it is to:

• give young people the opportunity to prepare for auditions
• encourage young people to participate more
• not put a young person up against someone who's played for more years than the younger player is old

Yeah, it kind-a sucks for us older people^* who haven't had these experiences. It'd be nice to have categories other than age.
~Art
* always two years away from middle-age

[bassdblr]

Poorplayer, all possible reasons, but I am one of many who started playing upright in my 40's and auditions are learning experiences for any bassist.

Anyone else here bothered by this age discrimination?

[bpclark]

I started DB "officially" when I was 35. And the age thing really doesn't bother me. The only thing that frustrates me is that I didn't' start much younger when I had more time to practice. I'm not out to prove anything so competitions don't have a lot of appeal for me. And it is possible to find a mock audition without an age limit.

[Brent Nussey]

Hi Bassdblr.

The thing is, these mock auditions are held for young players who are vying for big-time orchestra jobs. It's a very competitive world. Some of these young guys haven't yet taken many auditions, and so they set these things up for them to get a little experience taking auditions, since there's so much at stake that you don't want to learn how to take auditions by just failing a bunch of them. These aren't mock auditions "just for fun," or to help you get into the community or local orchestra. They have an age limit because if you haven't already been out on the audition circuit by the time you're in your mid to late 20's, you aren't really in serious competition for these top jobs, and so you aren't part of the target group they're trying to help. You wrote, "I could have had benefit from an audition experience," but that's not what they're going for here. These mock auditions are really to help guys who are just getting started in the pro orchestra world not waste time and money learning how to take auditions just by taking a bunch and screwing them up. These young aspiring orchestra pros really have a lot at stake.

There's LOTS at an ISB convention targeted at older players, amateur players, non-orchestra players who want to get more classical experience, all kinds of things. This is just one activity targeted at a very specific group of players who they're trying to help. Try not to get so hung up on crying age discrimination, saying that it reflects badly on the sponsors, until you understand why they're doing so.

Look, I'm 35, I've been playing full time most of my life, I take classical lessons. I will never reach the level to audition against these 20 year olds for say, a position in the Detroit Symphony. What the 20 year old needs is the chance to audition in front of some of the same kinds of people he will have to audition in front of for a pro symphony, and get their feedback. What you and I need is a chance to be around other bassists, and learn what we can do to improve our skills for the situations we can expect to find ourselves in. The reality is, starting the bass at 40, you just won't be competing for these top orchestra spots, but you have, I'm sure, many fine years of bass playing and bass brotherhood ahead of you. I think if you look at the ISB schedule, you'll see that they provide lots of activities geared specifically towards folks like us.

Brent

[billyfalconer]

Originally Posted by bassdblr

Age discrimination seems to be a trend with many competitions.

I don't think it's a trend. Over the decades I've been playing bass, it's always been that way.

Originally Posted by bassdblr

Why does someone need to be in their teens to early 30's to have an interest in competition?

It's not about your interest. It's about finding and helping the very best future symphony players. From their perspective, If you're beyond 30 or so and just getting serious enough to be interested in competitions, you're not going to make it into the top. You're competing against people who have been that serious since they were in their teens. If you're over 30 or so and have been doing competitions but still want to do more, that probably means you've been unsuccessful and won't give it up, or you're a ringer. They're telling you to give it up. You can still audition for orchestras, though.

I'm not trying to flame you, but it does make sense from their point of view, if you remember that those things are for future soloists or players for top orchestras. The exception to this I've seen is in composition competitions, which are frequently open to anyone of any age.

[bassdblr]

Thanks guys for the reality check here. These explanations have provided a good understanding what these auditions and competitions are or are not all about. I am in no way looking for top orchestral jobs or claim any vast experience in the classical world. I am just trying to become a better player, get more gigs, stretch myself in the classical realm, be a versatile, working player. The music business, by its nature, has its degree of age stratification in general, and that's a reality, but there have been exceptions in my experiences as well.

[hdiddy]

Over here in the bay area, there's kind of a similar situation. There's A Double bass camp with Barry Green, John Clayton, and usually Kristen Korb I think and many more. I think Barry Green hosts it as it is on his site. The only hitch is that you gotta be under 22 to attend. I dont' think they do mock auditions, it's just a weeklong workshop.

I wouldn't mind so much if they gave us adults a chance at such great teachers, like how the Stanford Jazz Workshop apparently does. I would beg, borrow, and steal to go to something it but I've never heard of a convention like that for bassists on this side of the country. Maybe there's something in LA but I've never heard anything like that around here.

At least over here we have the Jazzschool, Stanford Workshop, and Jazz Camp West, but it seems they're mostly accommodating toward singers and lead players. Of the class descriptions I've seen, there isn't anything that seems terribly advanced. Most seem to cater to the beginning/intermediate players. I dunno, I'm hesitant to cough up $1k for an entire week Ithat I'll get alot out of.