Another 'bass is pointless' argument

[lewys93]

The following is a transcript from a 'discussion' (if you can call it that) with a friend of mine.

Ben is a guitarist
Robert is a guitarist, who also plays the piano
Tom is an incredible musician, a multi-instrumentalist
I (Lewys) (needless to say) am a bassist, but I also play the piano.

All of us have had professional musical training (apart from Ben).

Ben had brought this 'bass is pointless' thing up before, so I sent him a link to Franz Ferdinand performing 'Take Me Out' at Glastonbury a few years back. The bass is accidentally unplugged and it sounds completely different without the bass.
(Here's the video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OMGgqXCLVw )

Tom: Agreed, not very complete without it is it?

Robert: Tbh, it sounds still really good with/without

Lewys: True dat.. But I doubt it would sound good if the whole song had no bass in it... I think it sounds good if you take away an instrument for a few seconds.

Robert: yah yah, fair point.

Ben: i didn't even notice when the bass stopped, it was fine without the bass

Lewys: If you didn't notice the bass not there, there must be something seriously wrong with your ears... If you want to progress in songwriting and performing in a band you have to listen to what everyone else is doing, otherwise the songs you write guitar parts for/play just won't sound right.

Tom: i couldnt disagree more. The bass is of fundamental importance as it emphasises, (in most cases) the tonic or 'root note' of the current chord. without it you just achive a tinny, too consentrated treble EQ sound. I'm with Lewys on this one.

Ben: lewys your trying to say i can't write a good song without a bass, thats just like saying you can't write a song without using flute. lewys take the guitars or drums out the song IT SOUNDS LIKE CRAP but take the bass out the song it sounds fine, JUST BECAUSE YOU PLAY IT DOESN'T MEAN ITS THE MAIN THING IN EVERY SONG!

Lewys: I'm not trying to say that... I'm saying that you need to understand how to build songs around basslines if you're working with a bassist to write/play songs in the future. It's not like saying you can't write songs without the flute, because the flute is usually used as a lead instrument. Lead instruments are interchangeable, as are bass instruments, it's just that in popular music the most common bass instrument is the bass guitar. Taking guitars out of a song will sound bad if you don't replace it with another lead instrument such as a synth. If you want to have a 'full' sounding performance you would have a bass instrument to fill the lower frequencies that would otherwise be vacant.

Ben: WHAT song on the planet has been written around a bassline, you make a good chord progression on the giutar then add some lyirics then add a drum beat then the bass guy does a note every 2 years. If you could take one instrument away from a stero typical band it would be the bass because hardly anyone picks up on it and it is boring!

Lewys: Assuming that all songs are written in the same way shows you to be somebody who lacks musical versatility. Ever wonder why you can only write Indie songs?*

Ben: so your saying lewys songs can only be written with a bass to start the rhythm, well then sir you are the person who lacks musical knowledge. have you not hear on how metallic the biggest band in the world make there songs they add the bass last and they made a whole album without using a bass guitar! BOOM owned!!!!!!!!!!!

Lewys: No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that versatility with writing music comes from approaching it from different angles. Some songs, you may well start with a guitar riff or a chord progression on a lead instrument, others you may start with a good drum beat or some lyrics. Stating the name of one band that don't use a bass for some songs is pointless, Metallica isn't like every band in the world. I could give you countless bands that use lead instruments other than guitars. But that's not the point. I'm not calling the guitar useless like you are calling the bass.

Tom: Why does a piano use the left hand? Bass
Why does a guitar have lower strings? Bass
Why is there lower strings in a symphony orchestra? Bass
Why was a Bass clarinet and a Baritone saxophone created? Bass

I rest my bass

...case

Ben: i am not mentioning any band, METALLICA IS THE BIGGEST BAND all the bands you mention are nobodys. just face it basses are a crap instrument. just answer this question then, if you where forced to take one instrument out of a band that consisted of a bass, giutar and drum which one would you take out?

The argument is ongoing (contuinued in post #19). I just thought I'd share it with some people who can see the hopelessness of my friend Ben's argument.

*Ben was complaining that he could only write 'indie' songs a couple of weeks ago.

All the transcript is [sic] so please escuse the spelling, grammar and punctuation mistakes.

[Gort]

Ummm, the guitar sounds an octave lower than written and I've always heard it could be considered a bass instrument.

[lewys93]

Originally Posted by Gort

Ummm, the guitar sounds an octave lower than written and I've always heard it could be considered a bass instrument.

Shhhh! Don't let him hear that!

Mind you, I didn't know that. I can be a little more open-minded now. I still don't think it gives an excuse to say that the bass is pointless and that 'all songs sound better without it' as he puts it.

[Shakin-Slim]

This makes me angry. I know it's posted here to be lighthearted but I read it and my blood boils

[pklima]

Metallica? The biggest band in the world? I'm sure that's very far from true.

Look at music that's actually really popular - Lady Gaga, Shakira, T-Pain, Kanye... it will always have vocals, drums and a bassline in some form (instrument or samples or synth), but often has no guitar. Guitar is pretty irrelevant to booty-shaking, and therefore completely optional. Sure it's traditional in country music and rock, but nothing more than that.

If you really want to lose some friends, say that in real life guitar is always least important because guitarists are plentiful and therefore the easiest to replace.

[Burlington]

Let me guess- Ben is not, and has never been, in a band.

[Ric5]

My bass is not pointless!

[lewys93]

Originally Posted by pklima

Metallica? The biggest band in the world? I'm sure that's very far from true.

Look at music that's actually really popular - Lady Gaga, Shakira, T-Pain, Kanye... it will always have vocals, drums and a bassline in some form (instrument or samples or synth), but often has no guitar. Guitar is pretty irrelevant to booty-shaking, and therefore completely optional. Sure it's traditional in country music and rock, but nothing more than that.

I've told him about Metallica and how they're not as successful as he thinks they are, but I didn't want my argument with him to be about bands, we've had waaay too many of those before

Originally Posted by pklima

If you really want to lose some friends, say that in real life guitar is always least important because guitarists are plentiful and therefore the easiest to replace.

I was tempted to say something like that, but making big sweeping statements like he has been doesn't win an argument.

Originally Posted by Burlington

Let me guess- Ben is not, and has never been, in a band.

He is, actually. They play metal and I think they all don't like to listen to or play anything other than metal.

[Burlington]

Link his band, I'm curious what they sound like with such a narrow view on music (I'm in a metal band too, but I enjoy much more than just metal).

[lewys93]

Originally Posted by Burlington

Link his band, I'm curious what they sound like with such a narrow view on music (I'm in a metal band too, but I enjoy much more than just metal).

(Surprise surpise) they haven't recorded anything.

[NumberOfTheBass]

You need to make him listen to some Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden and ask him how he thinks it would sound without bass. They are a couple of the bands that influenced modern metal and are heavilly bass driven, even so much as to be written around the bass lines often. Metallica has even claimed that Maiden and Sabbath were some of their influences.

[dpbass66]

bass also sounds one octave lower than written, which makes it sound one occatve lower than a guitar...if the bass has a B string, than one octave plus a 5th lower....

guitars dont play in symphony orchestras basses do!!!

basses have not, are not, replaced by any instrument in most other situations....orchestras, pit orchestras, big bands...all have either bass guitar OR acoustic bass....but guitar is optional

in jazz guitar is interchangebale with piano...BUT bass is typically an absolute...any jazz grouping...trio, quartet, quintet...all usually have bass, but not typicaly guitar...look at all the great jazz groups in history ALL have bass, most do not have guitar.

GOD I could go on and on...your friend is SOOOO off....

[lewys93]

Originally Posted by NumberOfTheBass

You need to make him listen to some Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden and ask him how he thinks it would sound without bass. They are a couple of the bands that influenced modern metal and are heavilly bass driven, even so much as to be written around the bass lines often. Metallica has even claimed that Maiden and Sabbath were some of their influences.

I will do. His tastes even within metal are quite narrow (seemingly what his bandmates tell him to listen to)

[AcidFripp]

Well, bands without bass often sound incomplete.
Bands without guitar, however, such as Om or DFA 1979, can still sound fantastic.

Bring those bands up as an example next time.

[Darkstrike]

This Ben fellow sounds like a twit.

[NumberOfTheBass]

Originally Posted by Darkstrike

This Ben fellow sounds like a twit.

Indeed. He is the phrase guitard personified.

[DrewGK]

have your metallica loving friend 'Ben' listen to Orion or For Whom The Bell Tolls without any bass.




yeah...

[MRDOOM]

I love how he uses the Metallica fot arguing that bass is useless, despite the fact that the albums that are often considered their best work actually have a fair amount of bass on them. They alot time for a 4 minute bass solo on their first album, the bass in "For whom the Bell tolls" makes that song, their most successful album is the one where they actually allow Jason to be heard.

[lewys93]

The transcript continued...

Lewys: Woah woah woah... Metallica, the biggest band in the world?
How so?
If you're going by record sales, Metallica have approx. 100 million sales. The Beatles, on the other hand, who ARE the most successful band by record sales (together with Elvis), have sold at least 600 million, with some estimates being put a 1 billion sales. Paul McCartney - the bassist of The Beatles - has alone sold as much as Metallica (an estimated 100 million).
This isn't an argument about who is successful though, this is about the bass. I just thought I'd correct you there.

Ben: Lewys i didn't mean back in the 18 hundreds when people had no idea what good music was, i meant metallica is the biggest band right now!
oh and tom many bands have basses but many bands also take drugs doesn't mean its right. Also what do people want in a song an amazin bass rhythm NO they want an amazin guitar or keyboard rhythm. And why if the bass is so good, do bands have giutar, drum or keyboard solos so often. It is very rare to see a bass solo and if you do its a load of balls, just sounds like its missing something OH THATS RIGHT ITS MISSING THE OTHER TWO STRINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PLAYER!!!!*

Lewys: You're turning this into an argument of taste - The music of the 60s may not appeal to you, but they appeal to many other people our age.
Having the bass in a band is not morally questionable, nor is it illegal.
This isn't a question of moral 'wrong' or 'right', we're on about what sounds 'right' in a band.
I don't think that you can speak for everybody when you say that nobody wants a good bass rhythm - the bass is usually part of the rhythm section in a band, whereas guitars are usually not. Basses have the job of keeping rhythm, as well as making a song more interesting. Many bands choose not to have bass solos because they do not suit their style of music, not because they think the bass is incapable of being a melodic instrument.
I doubt you can actually think of a song that has a bass solo apart from the one you keep telling me about.
Five and six string basses are common. The reason most basses have four strings is because they are derived from double basses, which, like the violin, cello and viola have four strings.

Ben: ok then lets get back on to the subject of what sounds 'right' in a band:
if you just had the bass playing think how simple it is compared to the guitar, its just the root note of ever chord the guitar has to play. Also the bass just follows the guitars chord progression (most of the time) but just has a lower pitched sound. It is the worst sounding instrument in the typicial band and it is put on the lowest volume out of all the instruments because know wants to hear it (its baically just something to ignore). BASS IS THE LEAST IMPORTANT INSTRUMENT IN A BAND TRUE OR FASLE LEWYS?!

*Yeah, that's right. He pulled the 'strings' card.

[Marko5657]

Originally Posted by Shakin-Slim

This makes me angry. I know it's posted here to be lighthearted but I read it and my blood boils

Meh… sour-grapes syndrome- the side guy with only four strings and less notes to play is more secure and sought after than he is.