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  #101  
Old 01-29-2013, 01:50 PM
NWB NWB is offline
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Originally Posted by two fingers View Post
Flea actually crossed my mind when typing my post. But, again, I would argue there are plenty of non-musicians who would recognize him, but wouldn't be able to tell you he is the bass player.
I would argue, based on many conversations with a great many non-musicians, that most do know that he's a bass player.

I think you're assuming a certain level of stupidity in non-musicians.
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  #102  
Old 01-29-2013, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by NWB View Post
I would argue, based on many conversations with a great many non-musicians, that most do know that he's a bass player.

I think you're assuming a certain level of stupidity in non-musicians.
HAHA the same could be said about Sting. How many of his fans really know he plays bass or do they just notice that sometimes when he sings he has a guitar in his hands.
  #103  
Old 01-29-2013, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by two fingers View Post
Flea actually crossed my mind when typing my post. But, again, I would argue there are plenty of non-musicians who would recognize him, but wouldn't be able to tell you he is the bass player.
i would've said you're wrong until this weekend. my WIFE thought he was the drummer. (still haven't figured out if she was messing w/me)

i still say as far as that band goes he's as much the face as anthony. in fact it seems to me they're always referred to as "flea and anthony".

other than that you may be right. the maiden thing is pretty much on though. i think maiden fans, and metal fans in general, are pretty knowledgeable about the bands they follow. so i guess that's 2. and the john taylor thing is 3, 'cos he's pretty. don't believe me? ask hernameisrio. possibly the sexiest one in the bunch.
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  #104  
Old 01-29-2013, 04:00 PM
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Essentially, it's the fact that unoffensive music is what makes money on the radio, so you end up with bland, uninteresting stuff that nevertheless gets the most people tuning in as possible.
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  #105  
Old 01-29-2013, 04:32 PM
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People listen to and enjoy what they understand. There is zero music education in schools these days, so the average person has never been exposed to anything outside the standard major and minor pentatonic scale-based stuff they hear on the radio, which is pay to play. I've played with plenty of snobby bozos who have this contempt for audiences because they sang some obscure Sting B-side and no one clapped, while I sang "Sympathy For The Devil" and blew the roof off the place. They played these jaw-dropping, extended, lydian b7 solos while reharming changes and no one paid attention, while I played a short, slapped, groove based solo or a plucked solo using mainly blues-licks and got an ovation. Win the crowd, win your freedom...ha ha ha. The further "out" you go, the further you leave the audience behind. They don't want to be challenged, they want to be entertained by stuff they understand.

Back in the 17th century, music was taught as what it is -a language, a form of communication and art, and thus it was taught in schools as a critical part of human enrichment. It was considered important. They went deep into it, which is the why symphonic music was so popular back them. People understood and appreciated it. They dug it. But as time has gone on, music has become de-emphasized in schools. No one is exposed to it anymore, so it seems more alien, more inaccessable than ever. This is why people are so in awe of pop stars. They don't understand how these pop stars make music, because they've never been exposed to it on any level. Most people have never heard a "mode". Most people can't read music. Most people don't know the notes on a piano. It goes on an on.

So, I always laugh when I see stuff like that video, where the message is how mediocrity rises to the top, while someone jerking themselves off to an audience is somehow more "noble", yet futile, and how tragic that must be to stop wacking yourself off and make a living with your trade. I've got news for you: There is no "noble" anymore for musicians. Until our education system changes, there is only survival. And I'll tell you what: don't be surprised when you find yourself starving if you want to stand on a stage and scream college-level calculus to rooms full of people that understand maaaaaaybe basic addition and subtraction.

Ever seen Madonna's rhythm section in the 80s? It was the same one Miles used. Did those guys sell out?
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Last edited by Bald Steve : 01-29-2013 at 05:02 PM.
  #106  
Old 01-29-2013, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Ezmar View Post
Essentially, it's the fact that unoffensive music is what makes money on the radio, so you end up with bland, uninteresting stuff that nevertheless gets the most people tuning in as possible.
It's not so much that bland music makes more money, but that more doors are open to it.

I had to go straight to Sony records once to use their masters for a loop recording that was going to be played on some airlines. I had a list of 12 songs to record, they gave me the masters and off I went.

Except I seriously f'ed up.

I recorded the wrong track on one CD, and they actually had meetings about a certain word in the song I selected by mistake. I wasn't even sure what was said that was wrong but they knew it was going to be offensive to a certain someone so the whole thing had to be redone.

"YOU'LL NEVER WORK IN THIS TOWN AGAIN!"

Nobody said that but, I didn't...
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  #107  
Old 01-29-2013, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bald Steve View Post
People listen to and enjoy what they understand. There is zero music education in schools these days, so the average person has never been exposed to anything outside the standard major and minor pentatonic scale-based stuff they hear on the radio, which is pay to play. I've played with plenty of snobby bozos who have this contempt for audiences because they sang some obscure Sting B-side and no one clapped, while I sang "Sympathy For The Devil" and blew the roof off the place. They played these jaw-dropping, extended, lydian b7 solos while reharming changes and no one paid attention, while I played a short, slapped, groove based solo or a plucked solo using mainly blues-licks and got an ovation. Win the crowd, win your freedom...ha ha ha. The further "out" you go, the further you leave the audience behind. They don't want to be challenged, they want to be entertained by stuff they understand.

Back in the 17th century, music was taught as what it is -a language, a form of communication and art, and thus it was taught in schools as a critical part of human enrichment. It was considered important. They went deep into it, which is the why symphonic music was so popular back them. People understood and appreciated it. They dug it. But as time has gone on, music has become de-emphasized in schools. No one is exposed to it anymore, so it seems more alien, more inaccessable than ever. This is why people are so in awe of pop stars. They don't understand how these pop stars make music, because they've never been exposed to it on any level. Most people have never heard a "mode". Most people can't read music. Most people don't know the notes on a piano. It goes on an on.

So, I always laugh when I see stuff like that video, where the message is how mediocrity rises to the top, while someone jerking themselves off to an audience is somehow more "noble", yet futile, and how tragic that must be to stop wacking yourself off and make a living with your trade. I've got news for you: There is no "noble" anymore for musicians. Until our education system changes, there is only survival. And I'll tell you what: don't be surprised when you find yourself starving if you want to stand on a stage and scream college-level calculus to rooms full of people that understand maaaaaaybe basic addition and subtraction.

Ever seen Madonna's rhythm section in the 80s? It was the same one Miles used. Did those guys sell out?
well in america they are more alien to classical music. Then during the 50s with Dodecaphonism and Serialism ... classical composer alienated the few people still interested ... the same thing with Free Jazz during the same period.

then the marketing machine took on. now music is like any fast food. you consume it, you put it in the trash and you are still hungry.
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  #108  
Old 01-29-2013, 06:49 PM
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I hate to break it to you, but the little 19 year olds don't give a crap abou the bass player for Bieber.They ONLY want Bieber, unfortunately the rest of the band get NONE. Unless they play the game of give-it up and I'll get you backstage (maybe). Cold hard facts.
For my own story, I have had people (mostly girls) come up and say they like the way I handle my bass and play it, several times.
  #109  
Old 01-29-2013, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by obimark View Post
I hate to break it to you, but the little 19 year olds don't give a crap abou the bass player for Bieber.They ONLY want Bieber, unfortunately the rest of the band get NONE. Unless they play the game of give-it up and I'll get you backstage (maybe). Cold hard facts.
For my own story, I have had people (mostly girls) come up and say they like the way I handle my bass and play it, several times.
C'mon man! Grow some game. Never undestimate the power of a wad of daddy issues wound up with some low self esteem and wrapped up in a giftwrap of insecurities subtlely played on combined with a promise of an introduction to the Bieb!

Wise up. Being on stage attracts a certain type of fan at whatever level you are playing. The ones that tell you they like the way you handle your bass want you to handle something else for them too.
  #110  
Old 01-29-2013, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bald Steve View Post
Back in the 17th century, music was taught as what it is -a language, a form of communication and art, and thus it was taught in schools as a critical part of human enrichment. It was considered important. They went deep into it, which is the why symphonic music was so popular back them. People understood and appreciated it. They dug it. But as time has gone on, music has become de-emphasized in schools. No one is exposed to it anymore, so it seems more alien, more inaccessable than ever.
Arguably, an even smaller percentage of the population received any formal music education in the 17th century than today. Children of the elite, courtesans and some of the clergy.

Far more parents can afford to get their kids music education today (although we're backslipping there as the economy changes).

And of course, for anyone who has a bit of motivation and an internet connection, well, there's a lot out there. Some of it is even correct.
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  #111  
Old 01-29-2013, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clef_de_fa View Post
To me selling out as to do with someone who would play and understand very complex music like let say John Patitucci and then being angry because he doesn't make a sh*tload of money like the bass player of Justin Beiber so he quits Jazz Fusion and all his wonderful talent to only play the root on the most brain dead music.
Um, John has played with or recorded with George Benson, Was Not Was, Natalie Cole, Bon Jovi, Queen Latifah, Sting, B.B. King, and Carly Simon. What was your point again?

Guess we can add the old Pattster to the sellout list, ey?
  #112  
Old 01-29-2013, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by lfmn16 View Post
You are amazing too, just not in a good way
Oh come on. Don't be a little wuss over it. No matter what your magazine articles say, that kind of sensitivity is not sexy. It's just..... well....... girly. Put down the sensitive skin lotion and go use some power tools before we lose you altogether.
  #113  
Old 01-29-2013, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Blue_Whistle88 View Post
What amateurs call "selling out", professionals call "getting a paid gig". Landlords and supermarkets don't accept "soul" or "integrity" as currency.
Tell it! Tell it again! Debt and poverty ore NOT badges of honor. They are just debt and poverty, nothing more.
  #114  
Old 01-29-2013, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by KwinS View Post
Really, you "dare" me? That's silly.

I'm pretty sure that there are quite a few folks out there that could do as you require. I have no idea how I could prove that to you via a TB conversation, but I don't think you would believe it, even if I could provide evidence.
Lighten up. Don't take interwebs posts so literally. I didn't mean that NOBODY on EARTH could tell you who the bass player in bands are. Just that 99.999999999% of even the biggest music fans couldn't. They don't know what a BASS IS. I have played literally THOUSANDS of gigs. I can't tell you how many times I get "You are a great guitar player." Or "Why does your guitar have less strings than that guy's." It's not a problem for me. It just IS.

Geez. You guys need to chop some wood or build a deck or something. You're getting really sensitive these days.
  #115  
Old 01-30-2013, 02:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bald Steve View Post
People listen to and enjoy what they understand. There is zero music education in schools these days, so the average person has never been exposed to anything outside the standard major and minor pentatonic scale-based stuff they hear on the radio, which is pay to play.
I don't think education is gonna help. My country has plenty of music schools, I remember elementary school classes about classical music and everyone having to learn to play the recorder. But it didn't work, and the most popular foreign songs of the past three years have been "Danza Kuduro", "Ai Se Eu Te Pego" and "Gangnam Style". The mailmen here don't whistle Schoenberg, either.

Also, there's quite a bit of mainstream pop music on the radio which includes pitches outside the 12-tone scale. All those sequenced synth parts with pitch bends that have been trendy for 2-3 years now got me thinking I might need to defret a bass so I can play those songs properly. There are probably more of those on the radio these days than songs in major keys, which have gotten pretty uncommon. Not that it somehow makes mainstream music "better" because it's "escaped the limitations of the 12-tone equal-tempered scale", but it's kinda funny that it does make it even farther away from Schoenberg than it was before.
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Last edited by pklima : 01-30-2013 at 02:10 AM.
  #116  
Old 01-30-2013, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by zfunkman View Post
The bass player for Justin Beiber makes union scale and more than likely makes no more money than John Patitucci. Beiber makes the money; his band is made up of top session players who make scale. I don't get where people think Beiber's band makes "millions."
Just to get back to this for a second, I realized a pretty funny implication of this. That means that the bassist playing "As Long As You Love Me" in a decent wedding band is getting paid more than the bassist playing it on tour with Bieber.

Wedding bands make more money than big touring acts here, but I thought that was just an Eastern European thing.
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  #117  
Old 01-30-2013, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by two fingers View Post
Oh come on. Don't be a little wuss over it. No matter what your magazine articles say, that kind of sensitivity is not sexy. It's just..... well....... girly. Put down the sensitive skin lotion and go use some power tools before we lose you altogether.
It's a losing proposition trying to have a discussion with people like you. You can't win an argument with intellect so sooner or later you have to sink to this level.
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Last edited by lfmn16 : 01-30-2013 at 04:34 AM.
  #118  
Old 01-30-2013, 07:02 AM
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I play in a wedding / corporate band. I can tell you sometimes we do gigs that pay each member quite a bit more than some sideman for national touring acts. I only say this because we have a friend who works in the music business in Nashville for BMI. She has contact with all the big name acts and sidemen.

I say this not to brag. It was a revelation to us as we thought sidemen in big acts made more than what we were told. Of course, they're getting food per diem, hotel, travel thrown in as well as their pay. Plus, the networking has a high value that's hard to put a number on it. IMHO.
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  #119  
Old 01-30-2013, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Bert Slide View Post
C'mon man! Grow some game. Never undestimate the power of a wad of daddy issues wound up with some low self esteem and wrapped up in a giftwrap of insecurities subtlely played on combined with a promise of an introduction to the Bieb!

Wise up. Being on stage attracts a certain type of fan at whatever level you are playing. The ones that tell you they like the way you handle your bass want you to handle something else for them too.
Nice, my wife might not like me doing that though! ;-)
  #120  
Old 01-30-2013, 07:16 AM
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A guy strumming chords and singing will almost always appeal to the masses (see also: people with money to spend) more than a bassist wanking around. I knew that before this video, and that's why I own an acoustic guitar, can play it, and sit outside of the theater department looking deep and haunted while singing about my stolen lunch money --- chicks dig pain. Lol.

Seriously though, I respect the heck out of guys that can solo on bass and/or have serious bass "solo" chops. However, I never want to listen to that stuff. You want to burn me a Wooten CD? I'll listen to it. But I'm not laying down money for it. I'd rather buy something to listen to in the truck, zone out a bit, and enjoy. Taylor Swift isn't my thing, but she's got a bigger wallet (most of the time) than _____________ (insert the awesome bassist that you love).
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