Changing song structures midperformance

[zillo]

OK, a little background. I'm an old duffer, new to music, playing bass for 8 years now. I am playing music with excellent guys who are excellent musicians, blues, Grateful Dead, some reggae, old hippie folk and rock covers.
We play out say once a month at parties and clubs. Our audiences seem to be having a good time

Now my buddies are changing up song structures in mid performance. say the tune is verse-bridge-chorus. this week there is an extra solo over the verse changes each time we play through the changes. Last week, maybe not. Maybe we've practiced a song where the guitarist solos over the song form. This week, the verse portion is 16 bars long, last week it was 12.

These changes kind of take me by surprise, leading to missed chord and structure changes by the not so talented, fluid, and way not Phil Lesh like bass player . I hate that.

On the other hand, it does keep me on my toes. I can usually recover pretty quickly. I think it's forcing me out of my comfort zone and making me listen closely and not just play the part, as it were. Embarassing though, when I find myself somewhere the band is not!

Fellow bass players...would this bug the heck out of you, or would you be in the moment jamming along and happily go with the cosmic flow?

I think I'm in the middle. I like the looseness, but I hate tossing down missed changes.

[Sneakypete]

Are they really changing the structure - or is is simply that the 'agreed' structure isn't quite as cemented in their heads as it is in yours? Exactly the same thing is happening to me in a new cover-band I've rehearsed with four times now. I have pleaded with them to agree on a Youtube version and we all stick to that - everyone thinks it's a good idea but it's just not happening and we sound hesitant and ragged instead of tight and accomplished. It's getting better very slowly but our first gig is in a couple of weeks and I've got a bad feeling about it!

[Downunderwonder]

The alterations you mentioned make it seem you are trying to "inscribe" every single note you play on some internal memory stone, never to be played any other way.

Ideally it would be yourself and the drummer leading in the changes. It sounds like the drummer is taking cues from someone else and you're not hearing them coming until you have already mucked up.

[Chef FourString]

It sound to me like ya'll need to come up with some kind of "on stage communication" system. Hand signals work pretty good for us when someone, usually the guitar player or myself, feels that the groove needs a few more bars. We like playing on the fly.

[zillo]

Originally Posted by Chef FourString

It sound to me like ya'll need to come up with some kind of "on stage communication" system. Hand signals work pretty good for us when someone, usually the guitar player or myself, feels that the groove needs a few more bars. We like playing on the fly.

This is a good idea. The lossey goosey is fun; the coming out of left field :what just happened there? not so much.

On the one hand, we want to be tight and driving. On the other hand, the spontaneity is fun. Some better on stage communications would help combine the two while avoiding train wrecks. I do get tentative when I'm not quite sure what's coming up...are we repeating the chorus, jumping to the bridge, back to the verse, vamping on the E? I'd like to be good enough that it didn't matter, and I could just go there, but I'm not (at least not yet ).

[Chef FourString]

Originally Posted by zillo

This is a good idea. The lossey goosey is fun; the coming out of left field :what just happened there? not so much.

On the one hand, we want to be tight and driving. On the other hand, the spontaneity is fun. Some better on stage communications would help combine the two while avoiding train wrecks. I do get tentative when I'm not quite sure what's coming up...are we repeating the chorus, jumping to the bridge, back to the verse, vamping on the E? I'd like to be good enough that it didn't matter, and I could just go there, but I'm not (at least not yet ).

For me, the ability to play loose comes from comfort. Comfort in your style, your instrument and your band mates. Try not being so anxious about what is coming up in the song. Rather, loose yourself in the groove and flow like water. Be ready without having to process the thought of being ready.

[Nev375]

The only real solution is to rehearse until the song gets cemented the same way in everyone's mind.

Unfortunately, many musicians have a poor work ethic when it comes to rehearsals, and band practice is just an excuse to get together, run through the songs once or twice and spend a few hours smoking pot, drinking, or maybe just talking about music.

Then they wonder why they aren't tight and solid on stage as they look over to the bass player as if it's his fault. Despite the fact that he's the only one focused at rehearsals wanting to play things over and over again. While everyone is jabbering about this and that, the bass player sits quietly in the corner running through his chops. Rarely saying a word or looking up, he could sit there for hours on end just playing and wishing the others would play along so he can experience the rush of being a tight cohesiv.....

Whoops, sorry.
Yeah, I know what you mean.

[prd004]

Jam bands like The Allman Brothers, The Dead, and Phish have a tight/loose arrangement system, it sounds like a completely spontaneos thing, but there is more to it than that.
They have "out cues" where a part could go on forever with a completely improvised feel, but whenever the soloist is done he'll play the out cue, the rest of the band knows this and that's how they achieve tight transitions, without concrete arrangements.
It takes practice, skill, and a chemistry that comes with knowing your bandmates too.

[DeltaPhoenix]

learn how to walk or turnaround into the changed part...or don't play jamband stuff.

[pasta4lnch]

yeah - when I first started playing live (long into my career - I was scared sh!tless) I was w/ guys who were playing together for years and rarely play a song the same way twice - it was very frustrating at first.

Pay attention to whats going on. Look for the person most likely to "run" the song (in my case it's always the singer, so I've always got one ear on him and one on the drummer)

switching from guitar I realized bass was the hardest to function w/ in this type of situation. a guitarist can lay out on the one, a drummer can just keep time but you gotta hit the right note! listen for pickups, subtle dynamics that hint of where the song is going etc.

fwiw the few times I've gigged w/ other bands who do the same thing, the same way, all the time it's been terribly boring . . . ymmv

[steveksux]

I do some fill in work, often without rehearsal, so there's a lot of uncertainty about where I'm going next. I think what are the possibilities? You're on the verse, its going to change, either bridge or chorus next. Think about what chords/lines they'll be, and be ready to go to either one. They only change at the end of phrases, so its not like they switch up out of the blue.

Randy

[RustyAxe]

Originally Posted by zillo

Fellow bass players...would this bug the heck out of you, or would you be in the moment jamming along and happily go with the cosmic flow?

No, it's fine with me ... in a live setting. As a regular sub in local country bands, I'm faced with playing a song one way on Friday, and in a different key, tempo, and arrrangement on Saturday. I'm convinced it's the best ear training you can get ... and get paid for it.

[zillo]

Thanks much. This is all good stuff. I played my first show out about 10 months ago. We are slowly picking up more challenging material, and stretching out more.

I think the whole thing about being comfortable mentioned by Chef Four String is the key. Also, as Mr Axe says, this is good ear training, and how you become a musician. Mr Pasta...that's a good tip. Good stuff. Thanks

[rad bassman]

i reckon in a covers band situation you need to always listen to the singer, but you gotta have an ear to the drummer too obviously, when dealing with extended guitar/instrumental bits you gotta just trust your drummer for a cue to change to the next section.
all this really does keep you on your toes tho, and is good for your own musicianship

[Downunderwonder]

Lots of good advice.

Here's some more, jump in on some open mic action. Seat of your pants jamming with no letup will help you learn to pick up on changes that are about to happen, without the pressure of expecting a perfectly polished performance.

[turbo chicken]

eh... we never play our songs the same every single tine ... doesn't bother me ...

but we got some visual cues worked out as well... perhaps that helps

[SBassman]

If it's them screwing up, I'd discuss it, and yes it would frustrate me.

If it's true artistic improvisation, embrace it and enjoy it.

[turbo chicken]

Originally Posted by SBassman

If it's true artistic improvisation, embrace it and enjoy it.

and it's this ... usually... if someone is killing a solo... they get a few more bars.