Competing With the Keyboard Player

[Jeff K]

We've recently had some turnover in our band. The drummer moved away, & the sax player started law school. We picked up another drummer, who brought his brother along. The brother plays keyboards. We're all trying to get used to each other and used to the songs. The keyboard player is borderline deaf (and wants to play WAY too loud). But even more disturbing is that I find myself having to compete with his left hand. At one point, I had to ask him to lower the volume because I couldn't even hear my own bassline. (This was just at a practice session.) Anyway, I don't want to act like a jerk, because we're just getting to know each other. So I was wondering if any of you have had this problem. On one song, I told him, "Your left hand is drowning me out. I'll be glad to sit this one out if you want to supply the bass". He laughed and said, "On no you won't!". But it wasn't long before he was doing it again. Any suggestions (without me having to be rude to him)? Thanks...

[ThunderGroove]

Start in motion a series of events which result in broken fingers on his left hand?????

That should get you by for at least six weeks

Seriously. Communication between calm rational people can achieve a lot. Judging by the way you have handled it so far, you seem pretty rational. If he is too then you should just be able to let him know how you see things and how it's making you feel. Probably best to do it before practice starts and try to put a positive spin on what you're saying. Like, "You sound awesome but at times our sounds are overlapping, resulting in neither of us being heard clearly".

Pitch it as being something that will get a good result for both of you and more importantly, for the band as a whole.

It's amazing what putting the right spin on something can do.

[Foamy]

All I can say is "bummer" - that was the story of my last two bands. My most recent band used to let "the wife" play the bass lines on keyboard before they picked me up as a real bass player.
I was, all the time, getting bad vibes from that one.
Before that, we had a phenomenally talented keyboardist, but no tact at all, and the guy left no space for anyone else, or just for space itself. And soooo loud!

[Dave R]

I take it this keyboard player has not played with bands before...

The only 2 cures for that situation.

1. Help the keyboard player to understand that he is no longer the sole accompaniment for the singer. In other words, he doesn't have to play all the parts of the music (including the bass) by himself. He has to fit in with the band, which generally means leaving his left hand out of the bass register. Just like he would not be playing a hard, high riff in the middle of a guitar solo. You may need the band (particularly the new drummer) to help you explain it, so its not so much a bass vs. keyboard debate.

2. Get a new keyboard player who knows how to play with a band.

I guess you could always use humor, too. There's the joke I just read here...

How many bass players does it take to change a light bulb? None, the keyboard player does it with his left hand.

[fenderhutz]

Place a bear trap on his low A.

Problem solved.

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by Jeff K

The keyboard player is borderline deaf (and wants to play WAY too loud).

Uh-oh... Red flag! Red flag!

Originally Posted by Jeff K

So I was wondering if any of you have had this problem.

Oh yes...

Originally Posted by Foamy

Before that, we had a phenomenally talented keyboardist, but no tact at all, and the guy left no space for anyone else, or just for space itself. And soooo loud!

I would question whether, given these severe deficiencies in his musicianship, one could genuinely regard him as talented at all...

Originally Posted by Dave R

I take it this keyboard player has not played with bands before...

The only 2 cures for that situation.

1. Help the keyboard player to understand that he is no longer the sole accompaniment for the singer. In other words, he doesn't have to play all the parts of the music (including the bass) by himself. He has to fit in with the band, which generally means leaving his left hand out of the bass register. Just like he would not be playing a hard, high riff in the middle of a guitar solo. You may need the band (particularly the new drummer) to help you explain it, so its not so much a bass vs. keyboard debate.

2. Get a new keyboard player who knows how to play with a band.

Bingo. For your sake, I hope the answer is Option #1. But based on my experience, it's likely to be Option #2.

As a general principle, anytime you have to actually instruct a member of the band how to play - especially before you can even begin to get a good sound together - you're fighting an uphill battle. That's why it's so crucial to recruit the right musicians - and the right combination of musicians - in the first place.

Good luck with that. You should know within the first couple weeks or so whether he's gonna work out. As to his hearing problem, what are you going to do about that? A musician who's (borderline) deaf is like a blind painter. Or a chef who's lost his taste & smell. Or a paraplegic sprinter. Or a mentally retarded scholar. You get the drift...

MM

[Vorago]

Can't you arrange a headphone or something for him alone, so he hears his parts louder than the rest of the band?

[lazyone2]

I have recently gone through a simular situation in my new band. The keyboard player was used to practicing by himself and he developed a very good left hand. In the middle of the second practice we had discussion about how two different bassline running at the same time usually is not a good thing. I believe it was not easy for him at first but he now uses his left hand differently.

[superjesus]

Originally Posted by Vorago

Can't you arrange a headphone or something for him alone, so he hears his parts louder than the rest of the band?

+1

[anderbass]

If all else fails...

You could always try turning the keyboardist amp and/or PA channels
bass knobs all the way down, then liberally superglue in place...

[manicbassman]

Leave him his bass in his monitor, but use a shelving filter to the PA... (put the filter in your rack of stomp boxes so he doesn't suspect...)

when he gets to do his solo, switch out the filter and then switch back in when he's finished...

[funkydanbass]

Its not a matter of eq'ing the guy or changing his level. If the guy doesn't know how to play with a group he doesn't know how to play with a group!!

Nothing annoys me more than keyboard players that don't know how to comp with a bassplayer or play with a guitarist... Ask him to learn fast! Or, get a new keys player.

It'll save you alot of grief!

[Liquid-Tension]

I have this problem all the time With one of my Guitarist, were all good mates so i just yell at him to turn it down, and if he dosn't i dont play! he normally turns it down straight away!
lol

[txbasschik]

Originally Posted by lazyone2

I have recently gone through a simular situation in my new band. The keyboard player was used to practicing by himself and he developed a very good left hand. In the middle of the second practice we had discussion about how two different bassline running at the same time usually is not a good thing. I believe it was not easy for him at first but he now uses his left hand differently.

Yep. Keyboardists who know how to work with a bassist often make chords with their left hand, so that the bass line can come through clearly, but still enabling the keys to give depth and "meat" to the sound.

Keyboardists who do not know how to work with a bassist persist in playing the bass line with their left, and often behave as if the bassist is the one in the wrong.

The former is a gem. The latter is a millstone around the band's collective neck.

Cherie

[toaster2k3]

Cut off his left hand and replace his keyboard with a monophonic one.

[ExaltBass]

A thick leather strap to bind his left wrist to his thigh?

[Lorenzini]

I play keys better than I play bass, and do a LOT more gigging on keyboard than bass. I learned to NOT play basslines as a keyboard player. I also learned to not even play the root note in the chords I was comping. All voicings in a band setting should be sans root. Sure, while playing a Bmin7, fitting a B in the middle of a cluster chord is cool. Just don't play the B as the ROOT, as it will fight the bass player!

If a keyboard player is doing that, you just need to tell him kindly to stop. Anything else is sort of silly!

Keyboardists are not the only ones guilty of this! Guitards do it just as much, if not more!!! However, I must say, teaching a guitarist to do it can be so hard and troublesome, it ain't even funny! ;-(

[Phouka]

Depending on the type of music... there's two things you can do.

1) Make sure someone *else* talks to the keyboard player. Otherwise it just sounds like you're pissy, even though you're right.

2) See if they can find a different sound. Make them dig out the B3 where they're less likely to be stepping on your register. Or ... you know, whatever type of keys will fit the music. Personally when I play electric (wurly, rhodes, whatever) I tend to narrow my range quite a bit because I just plain don't like the highs and lows of the electric. That helps keep me out of the way of the bass and electric at the same time.

It helps if yer keys player also plays bass, though.

[need4mospd]

Originally Posted by Phouka

It helps if yer keys player also plays bass, though.

My band has two keys/bass players and we trade off depending on who wants to play what part.

The perfect way to deal with a keyboard player? Become one!

[derrico1]

Originally Posted by need4mospd

The perfect way to deal with a keyboard player? Become one!

Bit of a Pyrrhic victory, that, no?