Do you inspire or deter?

[Big Mike Ipp]

Hey, this is my first thread I've created and unfortunally its somewhat of a rant

Just to give a little background, I've been playing bass for 6 or so years, gigging sparingly throughout, doing fill in work with some local bands here and there both in Tallahassee and South Florida. When I'm not out playing usually I'm a bedroom bassist and give lessons weekly to people looking to pick up playing. But something struck me the other day and brought up alot of memories to what I had to deal with when I started playing.

The incident goes as this, I was giving a lesson to a friend who literally just picked up the bass for the first time, and I live with 2 other "musicians", and he was not very good as you could imagine. Well I went over simple techniques with him and more or less learning how to pluck, pick, fretting, etc, you know the mundane first stuff. Well as he was playing a simple 1 note beat the simpliciy of it kinda inspired me, just the whole fact that someone is learning a new instrument was extremly inspiring. To me it doesn't matter if your a 40 year veteran or a 14 year old start up, we're all brothers of the low end and we should all inspire eachother, and help eachother grow musically no matter what the difference in skill level. Anyway, the kid finishes his half hour and leaves, no sooner than he walks out the door my roommate comes in and goes, wow, that kid is awful, he should just quit now (theres more but no point in carrying on), after he finished that statement I remembered what it was like to first start playing bass, and it wasn't fun at all really. Tell me if you ever experienced these...

-In high school when I first started playing there were other kids who had been playing bass for a while and when I first started playing I would look for all the help I could get. However the older players would not help me, it seemed like I was the oddman out because I was new and it was the cool thing to act better than a new guy simply because you knew more.
-I went to sam ash regularly and one day I was sittin down playing bass, and this is a month after I started, and I was fooling around on the bass. Nothing extreme, just playing a few riffs from some songs, being polite and respectful volume wise. My friend was with me and he had been playing bass for a year at the time, and he comes up to me and goes, see the guitar tech over there, he can hear you and hes telling all his customers that what your playing is an example of poor playing and musical taste. (I don't remember the exact words the guy used, but it was mean spirited).
-At GC I was playing, and this is after 2 years or so and I had gotten vastly better on the instrument, and I was playing being mindful of the volume, and this older guy, who was much better than I, comes up, blasts his volume next to me, and trys to show me up. Of course he was better than me, and he knew this, so what was the point of blasting the bass?
-I took a student to sam ash (2 years ago) to help him find a bass that would suit him, well we started playing and he was trying to differenciate between sounds and basses when an assiociate came up and turned off the amp my friend was playing, and walked away.

Theres countless other occurances, but these were the most notable. Ask yourself this, as a bass player, when you're at a local music shop, or listening to a new bass player, do you guide or try to inspire them? Or do you tout your musical prowress over them? If a kids playing too loudly or messing up, do you write him off as stupid or "crappy" or do you walk over and try to talk and help him out? We are all brothers of the low end, and its our duty to help out fellow players, to reach out, to learn and get inspiration from those better and those just learning to play. Remember how hard it was when you first started playing? How judgemental some people could be!? Look at yourself, look at how you approach new players or those less knowledgable, do you reach out, or pass them off?

[JackANSI]

I see where you're coming from... But this is the way animals behave. No one is going to be able to change the way someone treats others in one meeting at a retail establishment. Lead by example, every second of every day, my friend.

Just remember, to be human is to let go of many animalistic things. Some animals like living in the jungle.

Just my opinion.

[Thunderthumbs73]

Originally Posted by Big Mike Ipp

Hey, this is my first thread I've created and unfortunally its somewhat of a rant

Just to give a little background, I've been playing bass for 6 or so years, gigging sparingly throughout, doing fill in work with some local bands here and there both in Tallahassee and South Florida. When I'm not out playing usually I'm a bedroom bassist and give lessons weekly to people looking to pick up playing. But something struck me the other day and brought up alot of memories to what I had to deal with when I started playing.

The incident goes as this, I was giving a lesson to a friend who literally just picked up the bass for the first time, and I live with 2 other "musicians", and he was not very good as you could imagine. Well I went over simple techniques with him and more or less learning how to pluck, pick, fretting, etc, you know the mundane first stuff. Well as he was playing a simple 1 note beat the simpliciy of it kinda inspired me, just the whole fact that someone is learning a new instrument was extremly inspiring. To me it doesn't matter if your a 40 year veteran or a 14 year old start up, we're all brothers of the low end and we should all inspire eachother, and help eachother grow musically no matter what the difference in skill level. Anyway, the kid finishes his half hour and leaves, no sooner than he walks out the door my roommate comes in and goes, wow, that kid is awful, he should just quit now (theres more but no point in carrying on), after he finished that statement I remembered what it was like to first start playing bass, and it wasn't fun at all really. Tell me if you ever experienced these...

-In high school when I first started playing there were other kids who had been playing bass for a while and when I first started playing I would look for all the help I could get. However the older players would not help me, it seemed like I was the oddman out because I was new and it was the cool thing to act better than a new guy simply because you knew more.
-I went to sam ash regularly and one day I was sittin down playing bass, and this is a month after I started, and I was fooling around on the bass. Nothing extreme, just playing a few riffs from some songs, being polite and respectful volume wise. My friend was with me and he had been playing bass for a year at the time, and he comes up to me and goes, see the guitar tech over there, he can hear you and hes telling all his customers that what your playing is an example of poor playing and musical taste. (I don't remember the exact words the guy used, but it was mean spirited).
-At GC I was playing, and this is after 2 years or so and I had gotten vastly better on the instrument, and I was playing being mindful of the volume, and this older guy, who was much better than I, comes up, blasts his volume next to me, and trys to show me up. Of course he was better than me, and he knew this, so what was the point of blasting the bass?
-I took a student to sam ash (2 years ago) to help him find a bass that would suit him, well we started playing and he was trying to differenciate between sounds and basses when an assiociate came up and turned off the amp my friend was playing, and walked away.

Theres countless other occurances, but these were the most notable. Ask yourself this, as a bass player, when you're at a local music shop, or listening to a new bass player, do you guide or try to inspire them? Or do you tout your musical prowress over them? If a kids playing too loudly or messing up, do you write him off as stupid or "crappy" or do you walk over and try to talk and help him out? We are all brothers of the low end, and its our duty to help out fellow players, to reach out, to learn and get inspiration from those better and those just learning to play. Remember how hard it was when you first started playing? How judgemental some people could be!? Look at yourself, look at how you approach new players or those less knowledgable, do you reach out, or pass them off?

I do not guide, but hopefully inspire. I mind my own business and do not tout. I realize that the music store is not the practice room. I'll spend maybe 10 minutes with a bass or an amp, and if I'm not buying it, I'll put it back where it belongs, and lastly, I don't care who is impressed or not with my playing at the music store- I'm not there to play my "most impressive licks."

[tZer]

In my experience, people find it easier to criticize and tear down than to compliment and be supportive. A person who is insecure will feel that supporting another person's efforts is the same as admitting they themselves are not very good at something. Conversely, if they tear that person down, they feel they have validated themselves and their abilities in some twisted fashion.

I believe it is a direct reflection of their personality in general. They seek to elevate themselves at the expense of others perceived flaws. When they can spot and identify something another person has done that they feel they can do better, they point it out hoping the comparison will make them look more accomplished.

I believe everyone feels the compulsion to criticize but some override it intellectually knowing that the downing another to up oneself is a losing proposition. I only permits one to remain stagnant while providing a false sense of progress.

[Bruce Lindfield]

I can remember that I used to record all the things I was involved in at Jazz Summerschool on MiniDisc and some friends asked me to record their evening live performance.

Well - just before they went on we were chatting over a few drinks and they were all complaining about the drummer - how he couldn't play and how obnoxious he was etc. etc.

I didn't realise I'd already started the recorder and when I played it back it came up with the loud rant from the band members as they were much closer to the mic, than the band.

Of course, straight after the drummer came up to me and said - wow I see you were recording that, can you get a copy for me!!

I had to make up some lame story about how it hadn't worked - so he didn't get to hear the total character assassination!

[ThunderLizard]

Good post. We should try to leave our competitive nature on the football field and support each other. But of all the musicians I've been around, there seems to be more 'Brotherhood' among the BassPlayers. More of a tendency to help each other out.

[bkbirge]

This is all fairly normal behavior unfortunately. I think most of us have been through both sides of this depending on our maturity level when we started. When I first started, a cello playing friend of mine asked me how I was doing and I said I wasn't that good (after playing about a year). About a week later I was in the band rehearsal room noodling around on my bass and he came up and said "Wow, I though you were just being modest but you really weren't kidding about not being good". He was right but on the edge of rude I felt. A year later he changed his mind 'cause I'd been woodshedding. You just have to have some thick skin if you want to play in a field where people's self worth is often tied to how well they think they play. Lots of egos make for lots of cattiness. IME, that all goes away the older you become.

[spade2you]

Originally Posted by tZer

In my experience, people find it easier to criticize and tear down than to compliment and be supportive. .

That's not to say the ones who dish it out are as good as they think they are. There is no shortage of douche bags. Being a musician requires thick skin. Even though music isn't a competition, people make it to be. They gotta put n00bs in their place and get upset when someone has better chops.

[El-Bob]

this thread has given me alot to think about.
great post big mike.

[jsingles]

I notice this happening alot and it really depresses me.

i DO agree though that I see more bass players helping eachother out than guitar players, who seem to only compete to be the fastest.....

When i see a new bass player (assuming his not just a jerk in general...) I like to encourage the fact that they have chosen to experience the wonders of the low end (instead of guitar in most cases)

My attitude is more of :GOOD CHOICE, see how awesome this is? welcome to the superior land of bass.

as opposed to: pff youre not a real bass player... see this? you can never be like me!

[tZer]

Originally Posted by spade2you

Being a musician requires thick skin. Even though music isn't a competition, people make it to be.

True - it's a good thing in general to have a thick skin. People who want to find and talk about other people's inadequacies are everywhere. You don't have to be negatively affected by what they say. You can choose to let whatever they say go in one ear and out the other.

I think a lot of people make the mistake of thinking that because someone may criticize them harshly that they automatically have to be upset by it. This is not the case. Everyone is entitled to their opinion whether it's based on their own personal insecurities or years of experience and skill. If you find yourself at the blunt end of someone's critique, you have the ability to choose to take it and use it or ignore it entirely.

With younger players - students - expecting them to be able to let harsh criticism not negatively impact their self image is asking a lot. As teachers we do them a great service by being honest in our critique and pointing out areas that require work. We can nurture an 'egolessness' by explaining to them that everyone goes through these things, including us - their teachers.

Remind your students that actions speak louder than words and if they don't like what someone says about their playing but they agree with what is being said, they have the power to change it through practice. Ultimately how they feel is irrelevant. It's always going to boil down to their chops and whether they have 'em or not. Help them get a thick skin, but also help them develop an ethic of practice and continually striving to be a little bit better than yesterday.

[stflbn]

Alot of times when people think they're "Inspiring" all they're merely doing is showing off and either irritating or insulting others ability.

[El-Bob]

Originally Posted by stflbn

Alot of times when people think they're "Inspiring" all they're merely doing is showing off and either irritating or insulting others ability.

+1, to inspire i think you need to be humble, and if you're not humble, then you're just a wanking jerk (usually)

[tZer]

There are also some very inspirational, yet rather harshly presented individuals out there. Being humble is not a prerequisite to being inspirational - it's nice, but not required.

Some of my most inspirational teachers were very frank in their assessment of my skills and that frankness was not always wrapped in a warm, fuzzy blanket. It was more often than not, accurate, honest and unembellished constructive criticism. I've sat in lessons and rehearsals where my teacher has openly stated that it was obvious I had not touched my instrument in the last week and the part that I just played was less than adequate. He stated it with a certain amount of grit and was far from concerned as to whether or not my feelings were hurt. Believe it or not, I was inspired to practice twice as hard the following week.

[El-Bob]

Originally Posted by tZer

There are also some very inspirational, yet rather harshly presented individuals out there. Being humble is not a prerequisite to being inspirational - it's nice, but not required.

Some of my most inspirational teachers were very frank in their assessment of my skills and that frankness was not always wrapped in a warm, fuzzy blanket. It was more often than not, accurate, honest and unembellished constructive criticism. I've sat in lessons and rehearsals where my teacher has openly stated that it was obvious I had not touched my instrument in the last week and the part that I just played was less than adequate. He stated it with a certain amount of grit and was far from concerned as to whether or not my feelings were hurt. Believe it or not, I was inspired to practice twice as hard the following week.

that's an excellent point. i still like humility though

[spade2you]

Originally Posted by El-Bob

that's an excellent point. i still like humility though

Humity is nice, but sometimes doesn't quite motivate like a cattle prod. ZAP!!!!!

[tZer]

I prefer a more tempered approach as well but I also see the value of simply laying it on the line. I feel that many people allow their first reaction to completely color the substance of what was said. If they were initially shocked or made to feel less than good by someone's comments, they summarily dismiss or resist the valuable lessons that were offered and choose to focus on "you said it mean".

I agree that it's not always necessary to be blunt and if you can get a solid lesson delivered without also causing the student to feel attacked or uneasy, go with it.

There is a flip side to the critic vs. the criticized scenario - the overly sensitive student. If someone is always interpreting feedback that is anything other than, "Way to go!" as "You suck" that student is rarely going to benefit from guidance offered. Learning automatically implies addressing the stuff you don't already know and are not already good at. Most people are uncomfortable dealing with their own ignorance and give in to being defensive to a point where it makes teaching them very difficult.

[mjolnir]

You bring up a very good point, Mike, and unfortunately I'm pretty sure all of us, me included, have been guilty of such arrogance at one point or another.

When I was much younger and in high school, I was the best bassist around, and naturally being the typical 16 year old prick I was got a little cocky about it. Other bassists would play around me and I'd grab a bass and "show 'em how it was done", and of course it made them feel bad, which I felt bad about later but not in the moment.

Of course, then I got into college and met someone who is to this day one of the best bassists I've ever heard, but he was cocky too and put me down the same way I had put people down before, even when I was asking him for some guidance.

Now I remember what it was like to be a "n00b", how it took me four years of piddling about because I never had a teacher to get anywhere at all.

To relate a story, I was in GC one day not too long ago, maybe a few weeks, and a man came in looking at basses and amps. Apparently he hadn't played in years and was finally deciding to take it up again, so (considering I was only there to kill time before I had to be at a friend's place) I put the bass I was fiddling with down and struck up a conversation with him. We spent some time talking about basses and tones and all that, then this douche bcbaggerton of a bassist walked in, sat down with a bass, and with this smug look on his face cranked the amp and launched into the most disgusting fast slap I've ever heard. It was sloppy, it was out of rhythm, had no groove at all, but this guy was oh so proud of it and wanted everybody else in the room know it. Poor guy next to me immediately went into the standard intimidated player protocol: flip on the tuner mute and tune for 20 minutes. That kind of behavior made me want to go over there and beat the cocky little pissant with the bass he was playing, but fortunately a sales associate caught what was going on and asked the guy to turn down.

[tavesd]

I was recently one of 4 judges at a high school battle of the bands. I was the only musician that was a judge, the others were a DJ, a teacher at the school and a law enforcement rep. We had a score card to rate the bands on various points. Aside from giving them a rating 1-5, i chose to fill that sheet with as much advice as I could fit on it. All of which I hope they took as constructively as I meant it. It would have been easy to put them down for whatever reason, but why try and kill the music bug in someone that's trying to get into it? I've run into at least one member from each band since then, and they've all thanked me for the comments. And it was also unanimous from all the bands that the DJ gave them the worst scores and was generally a prick in his comments. My band tossed into the prize package a day in our rehearsal place/studio. We had discussed it as a band before offering it up, and we all agreed that we wish we had that kind of encouragment and support when we were starting out many moons ago. It's all about encouraging these kids to keep playing/practicing.

[scottbass]

Originally Posted by Big Mike Ipp

-I went to sam ash ... see the guitar tech over there, he can hear you and hes telling all his customers that what your playing is an example of poor playing and musical taste.

-I took a student to sam ash (2 years ago) to help him find a bass that would suit him, well we started playing and he was trying to differenciate between sounds and basses when an assiociate came up and turned off the amp my friend was playing, and walked away.

I certainly hope you (a) won't buy anything EVER at that particular sam ash (b) don't ever take your students to that sam ash ever again, and (c) let the manager of that particular sam ash know that he has lost business from you AND your students because of the behavior of his employees.

Complaining to us about the shoddy treatment you received is all well and good, but it changes nothing. Please take some action to help improve the retail music experience for others.