Does this tick anyone else off???

[mndean]

Originally Posted by lunarpollen

For a decent singer, it doesn't matter if they don't know the name of the key(s) a song is in, as long as they can *hear* the key(s) and sing appropriately for whatever it is, and be able to know when a note is wrong for a certain key or chord. They need to have an innate sense of what is harmonious and what is disharmonious, and be able to tell when they are flat or sharp. They don't need to sing in perfect tune all the time like some kind of sterile auto-tuned creature, but they have to have a good sense of pitch self-awareness and know when something works and when something sounds bad.

I'd certainly settle for that after playing for singers who were repeatedly off key or "sang" in one key with a range of three notes.

[drpepper]

Originally Posted by lfmn16

Well, if you make up the most ridiculous, never going to happen scenario, you can find an exception.

The best, most professional singers I've worked with over the years show up prepared, knowing the lyrics (or having copies of them), ready to sing, knowing what key they are singing in. In a perfect world, everyone can sing a song in the original key, in the real world, particularly old blues and country standards, everyone has a sweet spot (the key that they sound best in) and I just think it would be nice if a singer could tell you what that key is.

Don't worry, if "THE GREATEST SINGER IN THE WORLD" shows up, I'll give them a pass.

Excuse me. I didn't say "the greatest singer in the world." It seemed the context of an audition scenario was already established and "the most gifted singer in front of you" would be a relative term. Hardly a ridiculous, never going to happen scenario.

You're the one asking a broad group "doesn't it tick you off you off when a singer doesn't know the key of the songs they're singing?" and then you say you're surprised that not everyone agrees with you.

My main point, again, was that we all bring our own perspectives to this. I don't know any more of your situation than you posted, but for a lot of people on this forum, who are anything from bankers, to engineers, to plumbers during the week and "professional" bassists on weekends, in bands with people who are "professional" guitarists, keyboard players, drummers and singers, on weekends, it's demonstrably the case that it is not necessary or even helpful in all situations that a singer knows the key of all or any of the songs they're singing. Why should anyone be ticked off?

In that context each person's professionalism is in how well they play or sing and in how they behave; i.e., how they treat the processes and treat the people they're dealing with.

IMO and from my perspective, with a band that's supposed to be a long-term project, there's an intent to find the right people and form bonds to be able to work best together. A good singer is someone who sings well. By my criteria, the best singer for "a band" would be the person with the best combination of singing talent and fronting abilities. Having selected that person, if they said "can we try this one higher or lower," without referring to keys, I'd think the band would work to accommodate them.

In some other context, where it is necessarily important that a singer know their preferred keys for standards, it's obviously expected that they do so, and not knowing would be a mark against their professionalism.

[drpepper]

Originally Posted by Bert Slide

Is She Hot???!!!

This is always the most pertinent question

[Dostradamas]

Originally Posted by SBassman

I wish I knew how the Me and Booby McGee thing took root.

I really dislike that song. What a bore.

At least Janis put some soul in it.
The Kris Kristofferson version is waaaaaayy slower & more boring (& he wrote it!)
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...on+bobby+mcgee


I love the lyrics! I can do without his performance.

[Bert Slide]

Originally Posted by drpepper

This is always the most pertinent question

For real and it is impossible to tell whether her lack of music theory knowledge is an issue until we see some pics!

[dbase]

The rule of thumb for female fronts are 1st, you have to be Smokin Hot, 2nd, being able to sing is optional but not required.

[BayStateBass]

We auditioned a female vocalist and had a similar experience. She had been singing in a band for about 6 years, was locally known, and had been asking our BL for a chance to audition since her band was calling it quits at the end of the year. Gretchen Wilson type voice.

Very attractive Cougariffic early 40's lady. Not hard on the eyes. As a plus, we knew she could play keys as well.

So she shows up at the audition with her boyfriend who turns out to be total tool. We discover this when he works his way up to a vacant microphone and decides to just start singing along with our practice.

Her keyboard skills are limited to chord punching only.

She did not know at least half the songs she asked to audition with, even though we learned a few of them just for her to try out with.

Now.....honestly, the band I'm in is a mixture as far as technical ability. The only ones who have any professional training are myself and our lead guitarist, both of us have a moderate amount of theory instruction and were trained by the same Berklee grad. Our lead player asked her what key she sings in and she didn't know. Told us "I just sing the song".

The audition was choppy, and just plain bad.

I think that for myself and the lead player, her not knowing what key she sings in was as turnoff.

In the end, it all worked out, she didn't want to join our band because she told us she was looking to be the headliner and felt with her experience she deserved a "backing band" for her voice. With us she would have been an equal member, not the main attraction.

[DerTeufel]

My band auditioned some singers recently. We auditioned two in the same day. Both had lots of experience and great voices.

Audition #1: Singer with a jazz background (we play rock and blues). She comes in asking if we ever, and would ever, play jazz. That question came up repeatedly in the hour and twenty minutes that she spent with us. She had fantastic range, and a good sense of key (just didn't know what the names of the keys were). We got the sense that she was looking for a backing band so that she could be the headliner.

Audition #2: Genre appropriate singer. Range is limited (sounds like Bonnie Raitt), but her voice is powerful with great tone. Didn't know the name of the keys, but she could quickly identify the key that works for her. She was cool with being a member of the band, not the front person (we all sing).

We invited the second singer back.

[drpepper]

Originally Posted by BayStateBass

So she shows up at the audition with her boyfriend who turns out to be total tool. We discover this when he works his way up to a vacant microphone and decides to just start singing along with our practice.

Her keyboard skills are limited to chord punching only.

She did not know at least half the songs she asked to audition with, even though we learned a few of them just for her to try out with.

Now.....honestly, the band I'm in is a mixture as far as technical ability. The only ones who have any professional training are myself and our lead guitarist, both of us have a moderate amount of theory instruction and were trained by the same Berklee grad. Our lead player asked her what key she sings in and she didn't know. Told us "I just sing the song".

The audition was choppy, and just plain bad.

Out of curiosity, what brought about the need to ask her "what key she sings in?" Did you start to play something as you had learned, and she had a problem with it?

From my reading, just like the op, it sounds like you had a person who wasn't right for a variety of reasons and simply had a wasted audition.

Had she shown up without a tag-along tool, knowing all of the songs, impressive with her keyboard abilities, and with positive mental attitude about being part of a band (i.e., not someone looking for a backing band to showcase herself), where would not being able to name the key of songs have factored in?

[BayStateBass]

Originally Posted by drpepper

Out of curiosity, what brought about the need to ask her "what key she sings in?" Did you start to play something as you had learned, and she had a problem with it?

From my reading, just like the op, it sounds like you had a person who wasn't right for a variety of reasons and simply had a wasted audition.

Had she shown up without a tag-along tool, knowing all of the songs, impressive with her keyboard abilities, and with positive mental attitude about being part of a band (i.e., not someone looking for a backing band to showcase herself), where would not being able to name the key of songs have factored in?

Probably not....well, not so much.

The problem came in her trying to sing "Bobby McGee". It didn't work out and the LG asked her what key she sang it in, and she didn't know. He asked her what key she sings in, and she didn't know. We perform all our songs in the original key with the exception of Ring Of Fire, which we transposed to D because I sing it.

We quickly figured out that there would be a lot of work in trial and error with her, going song by song, having her sing and us picking through and figuring out the key signatures.

But, had she shown a better attitude we probably would have been okay with the extra work.

So, I see your point.

[drpepper]

Originally Posted by BayStateBass

We quickly figured out that there would be a lot of work in trial and error with her, going song by song, having her sing and us picking through and figuring out the key signatures.

But, had she shown a better attitude we probably would have been okay with the extra work.

Yeah, I'd hope that, playing covers, a singer would at most come across a few songs that would work better for them in a different key than recorded, especially when you're talking about an established band and a new singer.

If their range was so limited that almost every song required adjustment, I'd view that as a negative. I don't know how good the pluses would have have to be to make that worthwhile.

And given the way I view bands, I'd be extremely put off by someone rolling into an audition with attitude that they're auditioning the band as hired help

[rickl289]

I'm in a surf/instrumental band where singing is not allowed.

However, a guitarist friend needed a bass player to work with a singer on a few tunes. We would start in a key and move up or down to find the best fit between her voice and the song. It was pretty cool finding the sweet spot. I the end of the session, I we must have played each song 10 times.

[Russell L]

Originally Posted by KTFunkAlive

As Branford said..

I don't care for singers, but I'm OK with musicians who can sing.

Great comment.

I find it laborius to work with folks who don't know keys or chord names. I'm used to working with folks who do, though, thank goodness.

[Sartori]

Originally Posted by lfmn16

I just joined a band and we had a singer over for an audition. She shows up with a song list with about 200 songs on it. She doesn't know what key she plays a single song in. At one point she says, "There's an E written at the bottom of the page. Does that mean anything?" I've had this happen on several occasions. How do you show up at an audition not even knowing what key you sing something in ... not a single song.

Also, we called a handful of songs off the list that she didn't know. To me that's like lying on your resume.

I hate singers. Rant over.

I'm really not sure why people bother with "lead singers" who aren't also instrumentalists of some kind.

[Downunderwonder]

Those Rolling Stones do it all wrong eh.

[Sartori]

Sure, there are some gems, but honestly I've never had a good experience with a lead singer who was not also an instrumentalist of some kind. Not even once.

[lowfreq33]

I expect that if someone does a song in a different key from the original recording they know what key works best for them. It's not that hard even if you don't play an instrument. When you find the right key, ask one of the instrumentalists what it is. Write it down.

[Clef_de_fa]

Originally Posted by dbase

The rule of thumb for female fronts are 1st, you have to be Smokin Hot, 2nd, being able to sing is optional but not required.

No wonder so many band stay at a very low local bar level and are boring as s*** to listen to

[kcole4001]

I'd much rather go out to listen to a band with a killer singer no matter what her looks were, but a band with a smokin' hot singer who wasn't any good?
Not a chance!

To the original question: it is SO much easier to work with a singer that has at least some knowledge of key and theory, but talent and ability is much more important.

Theory can be learned, talent is what God gave ya, no more or less.

[PopaWoody]

Our singer could not tell you a single thing about key or theory. However she can tell you right away if you start playing something in E flat tuning vs Std. She knows what songs are in Drop D, E flat and standard. We don't transpose anything, if she can't hit the high stuff or the really low male stuff. We wont play it.

I played with a singer from the Voice, who asked us to play Queen's Crazy little thing called love a whole step higher than written. We played it in E instead of D. I transposed on the fly and the guitar capo'd at the second fret. It sounded weird musically but we got through it and she explained afterwards that she had a hard time with Freddy's lower range on that tune.

FWIW if the singer can sing, what the hell does it matter if they know musical theory? SMH some of you trained guys that think their caca dont stink need to give it a rest.

What do you call someone that owns a microphone and hangs out with musicians? A singer.