Does this tick anyone else off???

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by Ezmar

I'm very sensitive to anything implying that I need "proper" musical training.

I'm not saying or implying that anyone needs to know theory or have training, formal or otherwise. One of the best entertainers I've worked with, who happened to sing, couldn't tell you the notes in a C chord or point to a C on any instrument. However, he had a songlist that had the title and key to every song he sang. And when we learned a new song, we worked with him to find the best key for him to sing it in and he added it to his list. In my opinion that is a professional.

All I'm saying is that when a group of musicians gets together they ought to be able to decide on the key they play a song in before they start. Everyone should know and that includes the singer. I don't know why people are getting upset at the suggestion that a group of people get together and someone says "Jumpin' Jack Flash, key of B" and everyone knows what that means and the singer, like everyone else in the room, knows that he or she sings it in B.

[drpepper]

Originally Posted by Double E

Here's a good question...what defines the "key" a song is in? I feel that most think it is simply the first chord that is played, which I'm not sure is always the "key" .

I had that same question and asked a friend who has an advanced degree in music. I guess it's actually a more complex of an answer than you would think.

I came away with the impression that discussions like this one are not technically about "the key" a song was written in or is being played in. They're about the bass root of a particular part. A given bass root may or may not be the root note of the key.

He talked about the tonal center versus what I trying to ask about communication and common understanding on keys. He kind of lost me on that, and I totally lost him when I extended the question to include the practice of down-tuning

[jive1]

Originally Posted by drpepper

I had that same question and asked a friend who has an advanced degree in music. I guess it's actually a more complex of an answer than you would think.

I came away with the impression that discussions like this one are not technically about "the key" a song was written in or is being played in. They're about the bass root of a particular part. A given bass root may or may not be the root note of the key.

He talked about the tonal center versus what I trying to ask about communication and common understanding on keys. He kind of lost me on that, and I totally lost him when I extended the question to include the practice of down-tuning

Sometimes the communication of key can be off. Nowadays, I usually ask the first chord if there's any confusion.

Some folks will say a song is in E, even though it's in E minor. Some folks reading a sheet of music may say that same song is in G major because the accidentals are the same. Someone might be a fancy pants and say it's a C Lydian. Some people will say the key is the first chord that is played, but it will mess you up if the song begins on the turnaround. Some will say a song is in C, even though the guitar is capoed at the 2nd fret, which makes it a D. Some will play downtuned and still call the key C, even though it's actually in B. Some will say it's in the original key, even though they tune a 1/2 step down from the original.

[Downunderwonder]

Originally Posted by lfmn16

Not a hissy fit, just an observation so don't get your panties in a knot. And no, I didn't write down the keys for the singer. I don't know how you do things, but I expect people who come to audition to act as professionals, I'm not teaching a class or holding a seminar.

You spent more time writing your rant than it would have taken to impress on her the importance of having the preferred keys for her tunes by insisting she write them down. She's none the wiser for wasting your time auditioning. I call it hypocritical to complain about singers with no clue and rail on about the importance of keys yet do nothing about changing it with a ten second speech.

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

You spent more time writing your rant than it would have taken to impress on her the importance of having the preferred keys for her tunes by insisting she write them down. She's none the wiser for wasting your time auditioning. I call it hypocritical to complain about singers with no clue and rail on about the importance of keys yet do nothing about changing it with a ten second speech.

I'm not hosting amateur hour here. It's not my job to teach other people how to be a professional. The person we auditioned was in her 40's. She claimed to have been singing for many years. If you haven't figured out how to be a pro after 20+ years you are either stupid or lazy and I don't want to work with either.

If you want to teach everyone who auditions for your group how you think it should be done, feel free. I'm looking for people that already know. Class is over.

[Jools4001]

Well, you know a singer is at the door when, even after finding the right key they just don't know when to come in.....

Ba dum, tish!

Actually, I hope that's not true. I play in a 5 piece band and along with me on bass and backing vox we have drums, a lead/rhythm guitarist, a rhythm/lead guitarist and a singer. The singer just got a bigger job and can't afford the time anymore so he handed in his notice, not rehearsing or learning new stuff anymore but just covering gigs until his replacement is found.

So we've been auditioning potential replacements for the past few weeks and we're trying out our third guy tonight.

The first guy sang OK, in tune and in time but had a very limited vocal style - everything he sang sounded like Caleb Folowill, which is great if you're doing a KOL cover or want to turn into a KOL tribute band, and his range wasn't as wide as we could have hoped. He had other issues as well, like being a 40 year old who doesn't drive - negotiable if you are a stellar talent but otherwise...no.

The second guy was a disaster. He came to us recomended through a mutual contact as somebody who had sung for 17 years in a reasonably well known and moderately successful band who do similar stuff to us. He came in like some delusional rock god..."Oh I don't know how I'm going to manage with this PA...we used to have a 10K rig and an engineer"..."Oh yes, Steve Harris lives just half a mile away from me, me and the boys used to go and jam with him". He also told us he'd got a 4 octave range, the trouble is that none of the notes he chose from that phenomenal range were actually in tune or in time with the band. He didn't listen to a damn thing we were playing, just phrased and sang the song just as he wanted then complained that we were not playing it like his old band did...well, dur....we're not your old band, it's your job to fit in with our arrangement not expect us to work out how your old band played it, on the fly, with only your vague idea of phrasing to go by. His vibrato technique was awful as well...like a cartoon Bruce Dickinson. Fortunately, he texted us on his way home to say that our band wasn't 'advanced enough' for his mighty talent, which saved us the trouble of turning him down...We know where the truth lies and have the recordings to prove it.

I have great hopes for tonights guy though, he's right up our street in terms of the stuff he's done and wants to do. I've spoken to him on the phone, he's all set up as far as gear and transport go, and happy with the weekend warrior ambitions and gig schedule that we have. He's also listened to the stuff we have on-line and is excited to try out, we've listened to the youtube and myspace links he's provided and he sounds great....fingers crossed for third time lucky

[NashvilleBloke]

IMO, a singer should show up knowing the keys only if the band is good enough to collectively transpose on the fly. If that's the case, the OP is certainly justified- a band should expect relatively equal levels of knowledge and skill among its members.

Having had a brief stint as a frontman, I always sang in whatever key the band played, unless, of course, range became an issue. Then we would transpose, but would generally wait a week to try the key change.

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by NashvilleBloke

IMO, a singer should show up knowing the keys only if the band is good enough to collectively transpose on the fly. If that's the case, the OP is certainly justified- a band should expect relatively equal levels of knowledge and skill among its members.

Having had a brief stint as a frontman, I always sang in whatever key the band played, unless, of course, range became an issue. Then we would transpose, but would generally wait a week to try the key change.

The specific situation was auditioning a female singer who showed up with a list of old standards like Mustang Sally, Taking Care of Business, Chain of Fools, Some Kind of Wonderful, etc. Some male songs, some female songs. The band members have all been playing for 40 years or more so transposing on the fly wasn't an issue. Finding the right key for her wasn't a problem either, except that it was a pain to have to try a couple of keys for each song so she could find her sweet spot.

If any other instrument showed up I would expect them to know what key they played a song in. I don't know why singers seem to be getting a pass on this.

I guess I got the answer to my question - it seems to run about 50% think the singer should know what key they sing in and about 50% don't think it's a big deal.

[morgansterne]

it's pretty embarrassing for someone to come into an audition and ask you what the notes on their own list mean.

that having been said, I've been asked to try songs without any previous warning. If I've heard it a few times on the radio, I might know the relative chord structure without knowing what key it is. It might strike people as weird to hear the bass player say, "yeah I think I can do that one. What key is it in?"

But when I'm in the car listening to the radio, I don't hear the songs as A / D / E / F#m . . . I hear I / IV / V / vi

[Stewie26]

Originally Posted by PopaWoody

.
What do you call someone that owns a microphone and hangs out with musicians? A singer.

Wow, your singer actually owns a Microphone? Seems like every band that I have been in the guy who owns the PA had to supply the singer's mic. One of the problems with singers is they never had to buy anything so they are less commited than others in the band.

[Gearhead17]

Originally Posted by morgansterne

it's pretty embarrassing for someone to come into an audition and ask you what the notes on their own list mean.

that having been said, I've been asked to try songs without any previous warning. If I've heard it a few times on the radio, I might know the relative chord structure without knowing what key it is. It might strike people as weird to hear the bass player say, "yeah I think I can do that one. What key is it in?"

But when I'm in the car listening to the radio, I don't hear the songs as A / D / E / F#m . . . I hear I / IV / V / vi

I agree with you. I am going to ask the band the chord progression or at least the implied progression and go from there. With cover songs, I don't care about the key, I look for the pattern of notes and what is being used. I will think about the key when not with the band if I am looking for other notes....

To the answer the original question, this does not tick me off.

[Gaius46]

Originally Posted by Stewie26

Wow, your singer actually owns a Microphone? Seems like every band that I have been in the guy who owns the PA had to supply the singer's mic. One of the problems with singers is they never had to buy anything so they are less commited than others in the band.

Three of us own our own microphones. I'm the exception, i use one the BL's mics, but that's cause I'm not really a singer and a really good mic would only let everyone hear how really bad I am