Getting Paid, a new low

BritPicker · #1 12-08-2009, 04:41 PM

My band played a gig last Thursday night. It was interesting...

4 bands on the line-up. We are 3rd band on.

The deal is that we play a 30 minute set, take $2 for each payer of $10 door charge, and they also charge us $50 for the mixer-man.

It's a suckky deal. But the venue is reasonably cool/prestigious, and they told us the 'details' after we'd agreed. More fool us I guess.

Anyway, punters are thin on the ground, mostly in the 'other' bar room of the venue. A cliquey-exclusive young crowd. The band before us has TWO drummers and takes ages to set up / pull down, pushing schedule back 15 minutes.

The organizer/booker is nowhere to be found - and does not approach us - it turns out he was there apparently.

So we play, but 2 songs before the end we are told 'last song', so we have to cut our planned 30 minute set by 10 minutes.

This sucks because people are starting to come in from the other room!

Anyway, we hang about til the end, to get paid. Turns out the booker left 1 hour before the end!

Emails to booker - replies you have to email me AFTER the weekend. So I email him. Then he says, you have to send invoice. So I send it him. THEN he complains in his next email that we didn't promote gig (we did!), and we made people leave with our music (even though previously he'd said that he loved our music on our website), and we didn't bring enough people.

Oh and we need to send a tax number now to get paid.

This annoys me. So I politely email the person that we DID promote gig, that his management of the gig had many shortcomings and that he should get his facts straight.

Then he comes back at me with hes never been spoken to in this way, that we are "old enough to know better" (being over 40 - ageist?) and NEVER to speak to him again, and if we do he won't pay us!

***??!!

I think he did not want to pay us in the first place! Hence all the hoops we have to jump through to get the money.

I think they are hoping bands won't bother to chase their money. It's a new low as far as I can see. It's not even that much money!

Anyway, I reminded him of his shaky legal standing on this and he paid us. I think his tactic was to attempt to draw us into a slagging match so that he could justify not paying us. Fortunately, we are older and wiser and did not say one insult or untrue thing (unlike him).

I think its terrible that bands are being treated this way.

LaklandBass · #2 12-08-2009, 04:46 PM

I would hit up the internet as well as clubs that you normally play and are tight with. Local bands need to stick together and you owe it them to get the word out about this Dbag. Ive seen waaaaaaaaay too many guys like this over the years and Im only 28 years old. Also talk to the club and make sure that they understand how this all went down so they can be informed of how this guy does business.
There was a specific dude like this a couple years ago in my area and the metal bands all put word out and refused to play any shows that he was involved in. The end result??? I havent heard of the guy since.

Stumbo · #3 12-08-2009, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaklandBass

....get the word out about this Dbag.

+100

konodl18 · #4 12-08-2009, 05:10 PM

Yeah, absolutely spread the word about bad apples in the music community. They will get run out of town quick enough.

And don't be afraid to get nasty with someone who is very obviously giving you the run-around. Being very well versed in dirt-bag-bar-owner-manager-promoter shenanigans, I waste not one second when it comes to cheating my band on pay. It's easy to tell when someone is sincere and doesn't have the money to pay you or has some legit issue with the arrangement.

It's also very easy when someone is just trying to stick it to you. In this situation I will immediately go on the offensive. F* bombs, yelling, and threats to take every bottle of booze and beer light out of the bar to get our pay. The $ we are owed lands in my hand pretty quickly.

southshoreconor · #5 12-08-2009, 05:12 PM

one night one tour a few years ago, we had been having some money problems leading up to this point and i finally said enough was enough. i locked the club owner and i into his office and... took care of business... while the rest of the band loaded our van and trailer. needless to say, we were paid what we asked, and then some for my troubles....

Elmo Oxygen · #6 12-08-2009, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaklandBass

I would hit up the internet as well as clubs that you normally play and are tight with. Local bands need to stick together and you owe it them to get the word out about this Dbag. Ive seen waaaaaaaaay too many guys like this over the years and Im only 28 years old. Also talk to the club and make sure that they understand how this all went down so they can be informed of how this guy does business.
There was a specific dude like this a couple years ago in my area and the metal bands all put word out and refused to play any shows that he was involved in. The end result??? I havent heard of the guy since.

This. Stop letting this happen. These "promoters" aren't even doing the one job their title implies, then they have the balls to take money from the show or worse, threaten not to pay you at all.
The truth: every 14 year-old on this forum could put together the same show (or better) that these guys do. We all have myspace and TalkBass and bulletin boards, and you're promoting the show yourself anyway, right?

BritPicker · #7 12-08-2009, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elmo Oxygen

This. Stop letting this happen. These "promoters" aren't even doing the one job their title implies, then they have the balls to take money from the show or worse, threaten not to pay you at all.
The truth: every 14 year-old on this forum could put together the same show (or better) that these guys do. We all have myspace and TalkBass and bulletin boards, and you're promoting the show yourself anyway, right?

Yes indeed. We've kind of decided to do gigs on our own terms from now on. Do PA, promote, do door etc. Take over a venue, do everything. All these guys do is take a cut, and expect us to be grateful. And this guy hated us saying we thought he could "do better". He just could not take constructive criticism at all.

rimtism123 · #8 12-09-2009, 11:58 AM

Yeaaaaah I know how you feel. There was a time where we agreed online about a guarantee it was supposed to be the house keeps 30% and My band and another is supposed to split the other 70%. There were 2 more bands but they only had 2 songs each so they weren't worried about it. Well there were well over 300 kids that showed up and each band only got ~$120 each when the charge was $5 per person. It turns out the house paid everyone equally when mine and the other headlining band played full sets and the others played 2 songs..

Ever since...we've made contracts.

southshoreconor · #9 12-09-2009, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rimtism123

Yeaaaaah I know how you feel. There was a time where we agreed online about a guarantee it was supposed to be the house keeps 30% and My band and another is supposed to split the other 70%. There were 2 more bands but they only had 2 songs each so they weren't worried about it. Well there were well over 300 kids that showed up and each band only got ~$120 each when the charge was $5 per person. It turns out the house paid everyone equally when mine and the other headlining band played full sets and the others played 2 songs..

Ever since...we've made contracts.

i would have no problem going up to those other two bands and saying "hey, you got paid too much".

most of the time (as the headlining band/tour package) i'll be pretty liberal, if a show does well, and pay the locals/openers a little something. bands have treated us that way in the past, its just karma i guess which is a good thing to have when you're a traveling band.

stuonbass · #10 12-09-2009, 12:21 PM

You are better off renting a club and doing your own show. These guys are not there to promote your show. They just want the money.

Richland123 · #11 12-09-2009, 12:36 PM

Bands should never agree to these types of deals. As long as bands are willing to agree to these deals, there will always be scumbag, low life, so called promoters out there to take advantage of them. This is also another reason why bands are still having such a hard time making any decent money. It is time for bands to stick together and refuse to do these types of shows and run these people out of business. You would be better off getting a few bands together and organizing your own shows if the issue is to attempt to get some newer bands heard.

I have been in the music business as a musician for 40 years and I am also a concert promoter. I would never ask a band to do these things. In addition, everything I do for my shows is with a signed and detailed contract and set payment fees.

AlembicPlayer · #12 12-09-2009, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richland123

Bands should never agree to these types of deals. As long as bands are willing to agree to these deals, there will always be scumbag, low life, so called promoters out there to take advantage of them. This is also another reason why bands are still having such a hard time making any decent money. It is time for bands to stick together and refuse to do these types of shows and run these people out of business. You would be better off getting a few bands together and organizing your own shows if the issue is to attempt to get some newer bands heard.

I have been in the music business as a musician for 40 years and I am also a concert promoter. I would never ask a band to do these things. In addition, everything I do for my shows is with a signed and detailed contract and set payment fees.

THIS
and
especially
THIS

Quote:

everything I do for my shows is with a signed and detailed contract and set payment fees.

LaklandBass · #13 12-09-2009, 01:42 PM

Also if theres an arrangement for percent of door you should ALWAYS do random head counts. We used to have one of our friends hang out in front of the club and count people coming in as well do a random head count right before we went on. In addition we would take pictures inside the club incase there was any confusion.
This came in handy many times for us.
We played a show once where the agreement was that we got $2 a head from the front door. They tried giving us $50 at the end of the night and we told them that our count was at 160-170 people and we had pics to prove it. I told the door guy that if he wanted to stiff us we'd be sure to pass the word around. He stiffed us..... so we talked to a bunch of other bands that we were tight with. As it turned out 4 of those bands were scheduled to play there a month later so we decided to book all of them ourselves at a different venue for the same night. The club owner was a little bit upset when no bands showed up at his place so he started calling them and they all said they refuse to play for a guy that rips off local bands.

BritPicker · #14 12-09-2009, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaklandBass

Also if theres an arrangement for percent of door you should ALWAYS do random head counts. We used to have one of our friends hang out in front of the club and count people coming in as well do a random head count right before we went on. In addition we would take pictures inside the club incase there was any confusion.
This came in handy many times for us.
We played a show once where the agreement was that we got $2 a head from the front door. They tried giving us $50 at the end of the night and we told them that our count was at 160-170 people and we had pics to prove it. I told the door guy that if he wanted to stiff us we'd be sure to pass the word around. He stiffed us..... so we talked to a bunch of other bands that we were tight with. As it turned out 4 of those bands were scheduled to play there a month later so we decided to book all of them ourselves at a different venue for the same night. The club owner was a little bit upset when no bands showed up at his place so he started calling them and they all said they refuse to play for a guy that rips off local bands.

That is the coolest payback ever! Nice work sir!

TheVoiceless · #15 12-09-2009, 02:20 PM

Your story is meaningless unless you tell us the name of the club and the promoter. Trust me the promoters have a black list, so should the bands. With the way the industry is going I feel these guys and shaky practices will be a way of the past. But that can only happen if the bands stick together and share their good and bad experiences. There are good honest people in this business. The problem is the "music business" is such a mystery to all that people can take advantage of that.

totallyfrozen · #16 12-09-2009, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southshoreconor

i would have no problem going up to those other two bands and saying "hey, you got paid too much".

LOL! That's awesome! I would tell you to go jump off a bridge if you told me that after a gig. The pay arrangments/agreements were made between the bands and whoever is putting the show on. What other guys get paid is non of our concern as long as we get paid what we were told we'd get paid. If you want to start getting paid by comparing bands, then they could argue that their 2 songs sounded better than your whole entire set so YOU got paid too much.

It's a losing battle, that one.

Just make sure you get paid what you were promised. That's all we can hope for.

totallyfrozen · #17 12-09-2009, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richland123

Bands should never agree to these types of deals. As long as bands are willing to agree to these deals, there will always be scumbag, low life, so called promoters out there to take advantage of them. This is also another reason why bands are still having such a hard time making any decent money. It is time for bands to stick together and refuse to do these types of shows and run these people out of business. You would be better off getting a few bands together and organizing your own shows if the issue is to attempt to get some newer bands heard.

I have been in the music business as a musician for 40 years and I am also a concert promoter. I would never ask a band to do these things. In addition, everything I do for my shows is with a signed and detailed contract and set payment fees.

I'm not saying this is good or bad, right or wrong--but people can also join the Musicians' Union. There are pros and cons to it but it is a level of organization and protection that some artists might find beneficial.

...just putting that out there.

southshoreconor · #18 12-09-2009, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by totallyfrozen

LOL! That's awesome! I would tell you to go jump off a bridge if you told me that after a gig. The pay arrangements/agreements were made between the bands and whoever is putting the show on. What other guys get paid is none of our concern as long as we get paid what we were told we'd get paid. If you want to start getting paid by comparing bands, then they could argue that their 2 songs sounded better than your whole entire set so YOU got paid too much.

It's a losing battle, that one.

Just make sure you get paid what you were promised. That's all we can hope for.

maybe i should have been more clear...

Quote:

i would have no problem going up to those other two bands and saying "hey, you got paid too much so you'd better come back inside and settle this with the promoter and me".

who's comparing bands?

in the situation i quoted, two bands were guaranteed 70% of the door while the promoter keeps 30%. if the promoter chooses to pay anyone else, its out of his 30%.

at a $5 show with 300 people, there's $1500 coming through the door. i'm leaving that night with $1050, and splitting it with the other headliner as we see fit. if your band had some agreement, well, for both of your sakes, hopefully that promoters 30% covers it.

i'm not sure how the $120 figure came into play, but if the promoter came to me with that amount of money, no one's leaving until i settle it.

totallyfrozen · #19 12-09-2009, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southshoreconor

maybe i should have been more clear...

who's comparing bands?

in the situation i quoted, two bands were guaranteed 70% of the door while the promoter keeps 30%. if the promoter chooses to pay anyone else, its out of his 30%.

at a $5 show with 300 people, there's $1500 coming through the door. i'm leaving that night with $1050, and splitting it with the other headliner as we see fit. if your band had some agreement, well, for both of your sakes, hopefully that promoters 30% covers it.

i'm not sure how the $120 figure came into play, but if the promoter came to me with that amount of money, no one's leaving until i settle it.

Ah...I see. I guess you have just made a good argument for getting (or trying to get) it all IN WRITING BEFORE the show.

southshoreconor · #20 12-09-2009, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by totallyfrozen

Ah...I see. I guess you have just made a good argument for getting (or trying to get) it all IN WRITING BEFORE the show.

always. well, almost always. im sure my band will always do some favors and deals on good faith - with people who have earned our trust.

i'm not a weekend warrior, when my band plays it's usually not at the bar up the street. i spent 9 out of the last 12 months on the road, and every night, i knew what my band (or tour package) was getting paid, and every expense the promoter had, including venue rent, PA rental, security, and of course - payment for openers or locals. taking on the roll of tour manager and band member, i can be as lenient or as hard with promoters and other bands as i need to be.