Guess how this gig turned out.

[billjr]

I've been playing in a classic rock/country cover band for the past three years. We basically just get together and jam every Fri night, and have only played out four times. The first two times we put together our own show at a local rest. and invited our friends. We packed the place and had a good time. No pay, just jammin', drinkin' and having a good time. As we've gotten better, the idea of playing out for money has gotten more appealing, and that is what we are now working towards.

We've had a new singer for the past 1 1/2 years, and he is into the singer/songwriter tunes and his own originals. He signed with a small record label ten years ago, and never made it, as the label went under (and he has only a little talent and absolutely no work ethic). Now he is trying to revive his career, and seems to be using us as his backing band. We have had numerous arguments about this, but he never changes, and constantly brings songs just because he loves them and wants to sing them, not because they are good to play out. He also refuses to consider dozens of classic rock songs that we already knew as he just doesn't want to sing those. It's really funny, because after slamming all the songs we know and love, he brings these crappy depressing songs and tells us how "people will love this one," even though it sounds just like the previous dozen songs he's brought.

Well, to cut to the chase, a couple of months ago, our guitarist told us we got booked for a Valentine's dance. Surprised me, because we are not a dance band. When we've played out before, there was very little dancing, as our songs are not really danceable tunes. So for the entire time we were (should have been) getting ready for the dance, I tried to bring some easy to learn, grooving songs that we could mix in with some of what we arleady do to make a couple of danceable sets. I spent time listening to songs with a metronome, etc. so I could group songs and then put them in an hour set list. My sets started moderately up-tempo for 3-4 songs, then brought it down for 2-3 slow songs, then brought the tempo back up with a special section of beach music(set 1) or funk(set 2) that would get people out dancing and keep them out there for a few songs. Then we could bring it back down for a couple of slow songs before we ended the set with a good strong up-tempo finish. By adding some very good songs, it made our current songs more danceable as I grouped them to blend together with similar grooves. I did two set lists and explained that it was a starting foundation, and we should all use it to finish our third set and make the two I did better.

Well that was two weeks before the dance, and instead of using what I had done and improving/building from there, our singer wrote three set lists and had them for the next practice, saying this is something we can use to get started. Like I hadn't done that just two days prior. It was also very evident that his only consideration was what order he wanted to sing them in, not what order would be good for the gig(dance). Also, he had ten songs in each set that was supposed to fill up an hour. ("So what do we play for the last 20 minutes of the set?) So bascally, three days of my work was thrown aside and completely ignored, as well as all of the song ideas I had to get people grooving. By this time, I had just shut up and expressed no opinions, as it's like talking to a brick wall. All of the problems we have had before (getting set list 1 hour before the show, etc) were happening again.

So finally, less than a week before the dance, our guitarist and singer get together at the beginning of practice and hash out our set lists in 15-20 minutes. The second set started with three up-tempo songs, but then went to a stretch of seven slow songs in a row, and finished with one up-tempo beach song. The third set was in the order that we remebered songs that had not already been mentioned. Again, I just kept my mouth shut, as it does absolutely no good to say anything, even if I know what I'm talking about.

So that practice we worked through the first set, and we were to go through the next two sets at the next practice (the night before the dance). When we practiced last Fri night, we started the second set, and after the 8th song, they were bored to tears and so depressed we had to take a break. Gee, no mention of maybe changing the set came to anyones mind (except mine). Then we moved on and finshised practice playing random songs, including many that were not going to be played at the dance.

Being pretty well educated, I understand that a good indication that a theory is true is whether or not predictions based on that theory turn out to be correct. So, my prediction is that this dance would be a horribly boring event with very few people dancing. We did not have the right mix of songs to get people out dancing, and our singer still only has one stance/look, and it's in front of a music stand 1/3 of the time. No crowd interaction.

One final note, we were playing a local private club with an older membership. 1/2 to 2/3 of the crowd would be over 60, and the rest would be our families and friends.

So how do you think our dance went? I'd really like to get comments on what you think would occur with this type of preparation for a gig. Do you think I was being too critical, and the dance was fine, or do you see the train wreck coming like I did?

[DWBass]

Hmmm........If you don't know how play to a certain demographic, you're doomed for failure! Personal likes go out the window. Being a cover band is like being a live juke box. I'm assuming y'all train wrecked all night but somehow, I think you're gonna say different!

[jgroh]

Our singer can really sing and work the crowd very well (and she is pretty good looking too), however when we first found her, she tried to treat us like a backup band. She insisted on adding some pop-country songs when we were a classic rock cover band. One Led Zeppelin song I submitted when were were trying to build a setlist, she announced...oh, I dont feel like singing that one so we arent going to do it.

I was close to quitting, but I stayed on and we had some band meetings to straighten things out. She came around to a certain degree and I decided to stay largely because this is a good band with no drama and finding another like that would be hard. So I think you need to make a decision...either voice your opinion on what needs to change or walk.

[Floyd Eye]

I'm guessing it went badly. Ditch the singer or ditch the band, IMO.

[scottbass]

billjr, it sounds like there is no agreement on the direction for your band and no degree of leadership when it comes to making decisions. You have great ideas, present them, and then sit and watch in silence as they get picked apart: "Again, I just kept my mouth shut, as it does absolutely no good to say anything..."

What are you gonna do about it?

You can become a stronger leader, which may result in you - or the singer - having to leave the band. Or you can accept things the way they are. This obviously isn't your main source of income, so there are no serious implications to either course of action.

It's your hobby. You've gotta choose whether to lead, follow or leave.

It also seems strange (to me, anyway) that you describe yourself as a "classic rock/country cover band" but then go on to say "we are not a dance band. When we've played out before, there was very little dancing, as our songs are not really danceable tunes."

I have never before encountered a classic rock/country cover band that didn't play danceable tunes.

[D.A.R.K.]

why the hell did you do that to yourself?!
i'm thinking:
Noun
masochist (plural masochists)
someone who enjoys pain, or who derives pleasure from harming oneself or being harmed by others
(in this case i mean psychologically, of course...)

[Zooberwerx]

Any band should have 3 primary objectives:

*Keep people on the dance floor.

*Sell alcohol.

*Get guys laid.

Riis

[DanNowhere]

If it was my band, it probably would have gone off with a sub bass player.

[rtslinger]

I'll go with train wreck and add they refused to pay you. And if you want things to change open up your mouth, and tell them if it continues in this direction you are walking. You can not waste your time with people like this. Fix it or get out.

[billjr]

Awesome comments and questions guys. I guess I should go ahead and let you know that as bad as I feel about it and didn't want to be, I was right. We played a dance and nobody danced. Well, at least for 9/10 of the songs. My mom and dad were the first to dance at the tenth song of the night, "Stand by Me." They were desperate to help out there little boy.

The fullest the dance floor got was during our first break when I put on my playlist of line dancing songs. Isn't that encouraging when the dance floor fills up during your break? The other hit came when we played the only song they agreed to from my suggestions, "I can't Help Myself," (Sugar Pie, Honey Bunch). This is SC and beach music is huge, with the Shag being the state dance. And we only played one shag song.

I have tried to be a leader by studying and practicing my instrument, as well as studying the music biz in general, so my ideas aren't just mine, but things I have learned from others, including Talkbass. We do not have anyone that is "in charge" so it is difficult to make a decision, at least one that is based on evidence and best practices. When I or our drummer do make logical, explainable, demonstrable comments, we are dismissed with absolutely no attempt to justify or explain why we are wrong. My ideas aren't picked apart, I would welcome that. That's how we can get better. Most of the time there is no comment at all, we just keep doing things the same way. These guys just ignore the most basic well known strategies for being successful without any reasoning behind it.

Scottbass, you mentioned that there are plenty of classic rock and country songs that are danceable. Your right, it's just that these guys don't want to do those. For example, when our singer wanted to do a Cheap Trick song, I suggested Dream Police, California Man, Ain't that a Shame, etc., songs that groove and what I feel are danceable. Our singer wanted to do I Want You To Want Me. Not the most danceable in my book. We end up doing some good songs by some good artists, but not the most danceable and grooving songs/artists. Anybody care to hear some Poco at a dance? I can't count how many times I've danced to "Gimme Three Steps," but our singer wants to do "That Smell," and I can't ever remember dancing to that one. They laughed at my suggestion of Twist and Shout and instead we do stuff like "Heart fof the Night".

I've even tried to motivate them with the fact that I have connections in Myrtle Beach, at Clemson Univ., and with Pi Kappa Phi frat, where we could play some great bars and frat parties, but not with what we play. Some of my ideas came directly from witnessing parties and bands and what reactions they get from the crowd. Nothing I have said or done has registered.

Soooo...

This week I am going to explain to them my "Vision" for playing in a band. If I had to name it, it would be "Party Band." I want to play parties, dances, bars, etc where people want to move and groove. Get 'em dancing, get 'em drunk, and get 'em laid. Since that is obviously not their vision, I will be looking for another band next week.

Sorry for such a long post, but I have a lot built up. I've been dealing with this for a long time.

But you know, it's partly Talkbasses fault. I used to defer to their "expertise," as I had never played out in a rock band setting before joining this band. By coming here daily, I have learned so much, and am a better bassist and overall musician because of this site. Talkbass has helped me leap forward in my abilities and knowledge. Thanks guys, and lets keep the groove going.

[bolophonic]

You can totally put together a band that plays parties and has people dancing. Ditch the current group.

[billjr]

Originally Posted by rtslinger

I'll go with train wreck and add they refused to pay you. And if you want things to change open up your mouth, and tell them if it continues in this direction you are walking. You can not waste your time with people like this. Fix it or get out.

Actually, I got my $100 and put it in my pocket. The previous two shows I let them split my share, as I don't need the money,two of our members are really bad off financially, and our guitarist is buying all of the band equipment we use. Not any more. Don't mess with the Zohan.

[DWBass]

I hear you. I'm always in battles with my band's vocalist regarding material. He is keen on choosing obscure non top40 tunes and I'm trying to tell him, folks want to hear and dance to familiar songs! He also refuses to do some standard stuff due to 'lyrical' content as he is a 'spritual' person. That's fine but we are not a 'Christian' or church band. By refusing to perform certain tunes limits the band's potential! I've been playing cover bands for close to 40 years now and I do a LOT of research in whatever area I live in. I go see ALL the top bands to see what sort of competition we're working with. But I keep getting dismissed. It's all good because like you, I will be moving on the first chance I get!

[scottbass]

Originally Posted by DWBass

He also refuses to do some standard stuff due to 'lyrical' content as he is a 'spritual' person.

BEEN THERE! A lead singer (who was only a part of our band for a short while, thankfully) refused to do "Hey Joe" because the guy says he shot his old lady.

[RH434]

Sounds like your drummer might be frustrated too, take him with you and start a new band, where you two can actually have input if not lead.

[BritPicker]

Sounds like you have lots of good ideas - AND you've done a stack of work and research on what works and what doesn't.

That puts you in a good place to start something new.

I do think, however, that you have not done yourself any favours by just "shutting up" because "no one listens".

This just allows the singer to think that, hey, he is right, these guys are idiots. He wins the argument every time.

Most bassists I know are personality type "supportive/quiet" - they don't like arguing! But, along with that, they are often the most balanced and analytical and practical members, so they SHOULD make their voices heard.

It's really no good if you just get beaten into submission, try to assert yourself a little (be polite and calm of course!).

Anyway, failing that, find some other players. In general people DON'T change, and you'll only do your head in if you don't move on.

Good luck!

[BritPicker]

Originally Posted by scottbass

BEEN THERE! A lead singer (who was only a part of our band for a short while, thankfully) refused to do "Hey Joe" because the guy says he shot his old lady.

Oh yeah, because Jimmi really DID shoot his missus didn't he?



Man that's dumb. It's like acting or telling a story isn't it. Some people are so literal!

[RustyAxe]

Originally Posted by scottbass

I have never before encountered a classic rock/country cover band that didn't play danceable tunes.

My thoughts exactly. I belong to such a band, and we keep 'em on their feet all night long (and most are in the 60++ age group!).

[modulusman]

I have seen alot of bar bands play "I want you to want me". i havn't seen anybody play "Dream Police" or "California girls" in 25 years.

[Raymeous]

One of the most annoying things in the world is a little kid that constantly asks "Why?". However there is an undeniable purity in the quetion, a question you need to ask your band.

If you come to the band with a well thought out set list, and can explain why its a good list, then it's up to them to prove you wrong. If somebody doesn't want to perform a certain song ask them "Why?". If they have a valid reason, i.e. its not in their vocal range, then ok. Make them give you a real reason not just "dude that song blows". What I'm looking for is "I don't think we should do that song, because it would be our 7th song from that band and we're not a tribute band" or "That would make our set over half ballads. We don't want to put the audience to sleep".

If it comes down to it, it may be time for a line up change in one form or another.