Guitar players/singers/leader who cant follow bass

[wornoutwords]

Originally Posted by Govithoy

I've found this to be pretty true in my band, unless I keep a *really* solid like. Sometimes I like to hit the offbeat, or play just ahead or behind it, and with a drummer, that's cool. But when I'm just playing with the one guitarist, sans drummer, I can't do that -- gotta stay right on the beat, no rhythmic surprises at all. That's not to say that it's boring, just not totally out of left field. I still enjoy playing with him and all, but I do notice a tendency to play very differently with him than, say, a particular drummer at school.
The reason? Well, all instruments have to varying responsibilities in varying degrees -- harmonic, and rhythmic. Drums are clearly mostly rhythmic, and little harmonic. Guitars? Almost all harmonic, and as long as they're on time, that fills up the rhythmic. The responsibilities of bass are split much more evenly, and they tip in either direction depending on who you're playing with. With a guitarist, your harmonic responsibilities take a backseat compared to the rhythmic ones, 'cause your drummer isn't there -- you need to fill a huge gap. When playing with a drummer, it shifts the other way -- you're filling in for the lack of an almost purely harmonic instrument. In a band, you're the bridge -- and when playing in a duo, you're the bridge AND what's supposed to be on the other side.

I totally agree with this, but probably from a different point of view. I play lead guitar in a band and whenever the drummer and bass player get together and write a song, it's almost impossible to write a guitar bit for it because the main harmonic parts have already been taken. Usually results in both guitars playing chords to fill in the rhythm.

[Eldermike]

Reading through this thread makes me aware how much things have changed. Back when I played in what we called "copy bands", guitar players were never leaders. In fact, in one band we would assign a buddy to the lead player to make sure he didn't get locked up, drunk, or hocked his guitar before a gig. Managers were never band members. We never practiced together, and if you didn't know your part of any song you got a warning, if you did it twice someone that you have noticed in the front row of the last 4 or five gigs got your job. I quit playing for years because of the fun totally left music, for me anyway.

10 years ago I started playing again, this time Christian music. I am playing with the best musicians I have ever had the privilege to be with, and we are all about helping each other any way we can.


I have been where some of you now are.
End of sharing......
Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

[mcdeath]

Originally Posted by RicPlaya

Kelly,

I did a real good thing over the wekend with my band. We sat and listended to each song 2-3 times before we played it. The drummer got 80% of his parts wrong, the guitarist maybe 20% and myself I missed a powerchord of all things in one tune and wasn't playing consistant 8th notes in another (maybe 5%). My point is you ear is way better than theirs as in the same circumstance in my band. Break it down with them in the room and show them as a band it will make you all better for it.

I'd suggest recording the practice sessions. Then replay the recordings for them. I always record my practice sessions and use them to identify weak points and problems. Recording would also prevent any arguments on these issues as memories can be subjective but a recording is about as neutral an opinion as you can get. Recordings also show sloppiness in temp and groove pretty clearly. At least that seems to be my biggest problem. Any time I deviate from the correct tempo it is immediately noticable.

ed

[Dynna]

I've had more bad time experiences than I would like to recall.

Some of the more notable ones:

Playing with a pastor who lops off a beat at the end of ALL of the first 3 lines of a tune, and then carries it the full 8 on the last line. The drummer and I follow accordingly, and we proceed to play the tune that way 3 or 4 times.

Did a practice before a service once with a guy that that had been playing, but had NO lessons, for a number of years. I could never quite lock in with him. I was basically splitting the difference between him and the piano player. After the practice, the piano player(who's not a drummer) sat down, and we proceeded to jam a little bit, and IMMEDIATELY we locked in.

Did a recording once where I play guide notes for 3 vocalist to do an acapella part. I was playing fretless, BUT I was totally in tune with the track, and the instruments that came in right after my guide lines. The singers were consistently flat for 3 or 4 passes. I heard it immediately. We kept taking passes, they kept staying flat. I finally told them the issue, and somehow they got it. They probably thought they were going sharp.


As far as other band members not knowing the tunes, I'd say LOSE THEM if you can. I know that in a church situation you have to make do(and I gladly do so), and maybe you can teach somebody(also gladly do so), but in a case where you're expected to know a tune, and obviously don't, and you hope to play out and get paid, FIRE somebody, or RUN.

I'm all for helping people. But I've always said...

"WHAT'S WORSE..A BAD MUSICIAN, OR ONE WHO DOESN'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE?" And it's ALWAYS the latter.

Most of the people we've told stories about here don't know the difference. Help them or fire them.

[jim primate]

my problem is, people play a riff, i play it back. i play a riff i get the, "dog that's just been shown a card trick" look. real bummer is a write a lot of songs and it sucks to have to break down everything and show it piece by little piece as opposed to riff by riff.

instead of "it does this x 4, then this x 2" it becomes "it does then, then this, then this, then this..."

[vbass]

^ I have a similar problem to a lot of the posts in the thread, but my issue is more that when I come up with a riff the guitarist gets the timing easy and the drummer has issues. The drummer normally is fine on timing but he can't HEAR the bass. He always tells me that he is used to playing with bassists who slap and so he apparently got so used to the higher tones coming out that he can't hear the lower ones anymore! Considering I play fingerstyle and usually in a drop tuning that doesn't help matters, it usually takes the guitarist figuring out the riff to get the drummer to be able to hear it. Kinda frustrating.

[gretschman]

A couple of thoughts from a lurking drummer. I think Govithoy nailed it really well. Ivanmike, instead of playing only on 1 and 3, why not play on every beat? If your guitarist is having trouble with time, why not give him some extra help?

In a corollary to this question, I've had to play a few times without bass. In that situation I tend to simplify my playing on the bass drum, while playing much more on that drum to help lay the beat down and supply some of the missing bottom.

Bottom line is that when one player's missing you can't continue to play the same way you when he was there and expect it to work. You have to adjust to the absent part, and find ways to fill it.

[kansas666]

Originally Posted by RicPlaya

Break it down with them in the room and show them as a band it will make you all better for it.

That just promotes laziness from the other musicians. If they know you are going to teach it to them, they won't bother woodshedding on their own.

[IvanMike]

Originally Posted by gretschman

A couple of thoughts from a lurking drummer. I think Govithoy nailed it really well. Ivanmike, instead of playing only on 1 and 3, why not play on every beat? If your guitarist is having trouble with time, why not give him some extra help?

In a corollary to this question, I've had to play a few times without bass. In that situation I tend to simplify my playing on the bass drum, while playing much more on that drum to help lay the beat down and supply some of the missing bottom.

Bottom line is that when one player's missing you can't continue to play the same way you when he was there and expect it to work. You have to adjust to the absent part, and find ways to fill it.

been there, done that - some players can't take the hint

[the_vza1]

guitarist taught me bass and follows bass better than me


he is jesus

[Mixmasta J]

My band's guitarist has trouble sometimes, but the key is patience. With enough practice this guy will be able to follow your licks and you will meld musically.