I Don't Remember Getting Gigs Being This Tough

[totallyfrozen]

Originally Posted by phippsyg

Until I read this I actually thought these problems were isolated to Sydney. Many venues here (and I'm speaking about original bands) have a deal where they give you a bunch of tickets to sell and you get to keep the takings from a certain amount of them-and that is your payment.

I do a jazz gig where the guy who organises the gig doesn't get paid anything, he pays the band so he can do the gig. The problem is everyone is having to take on these opportunities with the hope that the money they forego is justified by the amount of exposure they get. The problem is though, that, especially in Sydney, people just aren't going to see bands. In a "society" where people can be "social" by sitting in front of a computer, people don't seem to need to get out as much. Take also into account people spend so much money on their home theatres, xbox's etc and the fact that now, expendable income is a thing of the past for some, you start to realise what's happening to the live music scene. (here anyways).
I think many venues that don't have music as it's sole income realise that their will always be someone who will gig for free for the "exposure" and this lack of regualtion is what really hurts the money side of things.

How many other careers exist where you train your whole life in something, spend thousands of dollars on your work tools and equipment, just to get to the job and hope you are paid a drink, maybe a meal and a couple of bucks.

Maybe I should have studied law after all......

VERY well said! (even for an Aussie ...kidding, of course)
+1,000,000,000,000

[denhou1974]

Originally Posted by Sartori

Venues that book metal bands charge. The understanding walking in is that the main event is the music.


Most concerts I've been to are at clubs of some kind. Arena shows are quite rare. Clubs of course vary in size from as small as Rooster's Roadhouse or the Oakland Metro to as large as the Fillmore. I've seen both local and much more well known bands even at the small ones. It is a concert, the bands aren't there to entertain drunks at a bar.


They have guest lists. Most of my family wouldn't go to shows in that scene anyway. I don't think $8 is so unreasonable. A movie costs $10, after all.


Perhaps it's just that I live in a vastly different area from you.

I only buy stuff from a band if I like them. I'm not going to support every crappy metalcore band I see opening. That would get very expensive, to buy stuff from every band, considering there are usually 3-5 bands at a show.

Yes I know that, Dude. I'm familiar with the scene.

My post was answer to OP about only getting paid $x.xx amount and WHY I don't think cover charges for local bands are a good idea.

So like I said before, if money is that big of an issue then avoid the "concert" gigs and stick to playing covers for "drunks at the bar". They get in free, you get a ready-made audience, and you get paid in $100 bills.

[iplaybasstexas]

Originally Posted by totallyfrozen

You're taking advantage of the bands and musicians...plain and simple.

"Initiative"?! What do you think it takes to learn an instrument, put together a band of people with similar skill level and interest and learn (or even WRITE) many songs together...then to put together a show and have the energy and balls to get up there and do that show?
All you have to do is sell drinks and provide security and some AC electrical power? Or if you're a "good" club owner/manager you also provide some good lights and a PA system.

A band's personal "fan base" should NOT be a club's criterion for paying the band a certain rate. The fan base is there for the band; not the club. They are the ones buying T-shirts and CD's and bragging about the band to their friends and driving all the way to YOUR club to see the band. Having the bands fan base show up at YOUR club and pay for drinks to see THEIR band is doing YOU A FAVOR. Not the other way around. If the club is cool enough and has taken the "initiative" to EARN a good reputation, then the club will have it's OWN fan base. We have a couple places like that here, and with regard to THOSE places, the bands look forward to playing there because those clubs are known for booking good bands. But those clubs also book FAMOUS bands with radio airplay and the clubs MUST sign a contract. There's none of this "$3 to the band guy" monkey business at the reputable clubs here.

Now, granted, Alaska has a higher economy than most states; but we charged $25/hour for each band member...with NO fan base guarantee (that's $250/man for one night. We had a 4 piece group). So break out the strong box and get out that $1,000/night! That was our deal...period. And the clubs paid it because we had a good CD. Did we have fans show? Sure! But we didn't promise that to the club. We did wedding receptions the same way...and we weren't expected to bring our FAN BASE to a wedding reception either. We had a contract that the clubs had to sign first--and they did. If musicians everywhere did this, the clubs would have to oblige sooner or later because the public can only stand so much of drunken karaoke night and/or DJ Wiggity Wack's "dope ass remixes".

When you're charging $5- $7 for a beer (more for mixed drinks)--not to mention your $7 cover charge--and one of the band's guys gets paid $3, you should be ashamed of yourself. Seriously. That club paid one band's guys LESS THAN ONE cover charge?! What the heck is wrong with people?! That's just greedy and unfair. How cool and popular would your club be if NO bands EVER played there?
It would end up being nothing more than a jukebox honky tonk.
Club owners/managers prey on the hope and desperation of up & coming bands...some of them struggling with poverty and poor equipment. The clubs act like they are doing the bands a favor. Well, treating them like that isn't doing them any more of a favor that a pimp does for a prostitute. It's a clear case of taking an unnecessary advantage of someone because you see they have a desire for something that you COULD provide without really taking a loss.
And the part that burns my shorts the most about the whole club mentality is that we KNOW that on the other nights you're paying DJ Scratch 'n' Sniff MORE than you're paying an entire band of 4 guys!

On a side note, your confession tells me that you're not booking good talent either. Confident musicians with a fan base wouldn't sit for $3. I wouldn't even leave my house for $3. I don't know. Maybe your particular venue is targeted toward the teenage musicians or something. I can't imagine a grown man (or woman) going through all of what's involved in putting on a good show for $3. That's just the cost of a 12oz mocha. You've paid more for Girl Scout Cookies than you paid those guys.
That's just shameful, man.

hahaha thanks for reading my other posts....i throughly explained it.
but i'll do it again.

I am NOT a bar owner. we do not sell alcohol, food, drinks, nothing. We book bands. I have never had a band play who had a member over 30. probably haven't hit that yet. This is a venue directed towards young talent, and upcoming bands. Better bands, get paid better because they are known and promote. As my venue, we don't have the cash to offer up a $100 guarentee to a band of 16 year old who end up bringing three people to a show. We commonly have shows were some bands bring no people, 1 person, etc. The bands get paid by their INITIATIVE in promotion. We usually pay the better half to the bands ($7 cover, we keep three, bands get four per head) and so on and so forth.

or just read my other posts.

[Sartori]

ITT: Not every venue is a bar. In some cases, the price of admission is just that. Not a cover charge.

[Sartori]

Originally Posted by denhou1974

Yes I know that, Dude. I'm familiar with the scene.

My post was answer to OP about only getting paid $x.xx amount and WHY I don't think cover charges for local bands are a good idea.

So like I said before, if money is that big of an issue then avoid the "concert" gigs and stick to playing covers for "drunks at the bar". They get in free, you get a ready-made audience, and you get paid in $100 bills.

I don't want to play covers for drunks. Not my thing.

I'd like to get paid, but I'm okay with the getting paid based on ticket sales thing.

[tranceFusion]

I'd like to weigh in as someone who is a much better drinker than bass player..

There is nothing that pisses me off more than to be hanging out at the bar and catching up gossip, whining about the work week, watching a hockey game, shooting pool, etc. and here comes some group of wankers to start shoving their mundane and derivative originals or poor renditions of covers down my throat at ear piercing decibels. If a band comes up on stage, they better kill in the first 5 minutes, or I am getting out of that place immediately. They better make me say WOW so that I forget that whatever I was already doing was being interrupted.

I like to see bands play. But I like to see bands that I LIKE play, and they usually aren't playing at the local dive bar.

On top of that, I hate when I want to drop in for a drink at a bar my buddy is at and suddenly I am getting ripped for a huge cover because they decided to get a band that night. What if I don't care about the band and just want to grab a quick beer (this is the case most of the time) without getting robbed and aurally assaulted at the same time?

[pbass64]

My band approched the local dance hall for a gig a few years ago and asked for $800 for the night. Plus pay for advertising and sell the tickets for the night. They said NO WAY. THey offered the door ticket sales to us. I said OK but we set the price of the tickets. We made $3600 for the night. We only play for the door in the area now. Some gigs pay a little less but there's always the big paying gig around the corner.

[Sartori]

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

I'd like to weigh in as someone who is a much better drinker than bass player..

There is nothing that pisses me off more than to be hanging out at the bar and catching up gossip, whining about the work week, watching a hockey game, shooting pool, etc. and here comes some group of wankers to start shoving their mundane and derivative originals or poor renditions of covers down my throat at ear piercing decibels. If a band comes up on stage, they better kill in the first 5 minutes, or I am getting out of that place immediately. They better make me say WOW so that I forget that whatever I was already doing was being interrupted.

I like to see bands play. But I like to see bands that I LIKE play, and they usually aren't playing at the local dive bar.

On top of that, I hate when I want to drop in for a drink at a bar my buddy is at and suddenly I am getting ripped for a huge cover because they decided to get a band that night. What if I don't care about the band and just want to grab a quick beer (this is the case most of the time) without getting robbed and aurally assaulted at the same time?

Most venues I see bands at, whether they're local bands or on a multi-nation tour, have bars, but are not bars. As in, if you want to order a drink, you can, but that's not really the point of the venue, which exists primarily as a place for bands to have shows rather than for people to get drunk.

The bars I go to do not have live music. I'm okay with that, I don't think I'd really want to go to a bar and suffer through the same songs that are overplayed on the classic rock station.

I think one of the things that leads to disagreement in this thread is the fact that when the word "venue" is used, people are thinking of different things. Some are thinking of bars that happen to have a stage and sometimes have bands.

When I say "venue," I mean a place that's pretty much only open when there's a show happening, as that's the type of place where I see most bands play and where I've played and where my friends' bands play.

[denhou1974]

Originally Posted by Sartori

I don't want to play covers for drunks. Not my thing.

I'd like to get paid, but I'm okay with the getting paid based on ticket sales thing.

Okay. Thanks for letting us know that.

Good luck to you.

[Sartori]

Originally Posted by denhou1974

Okay. Thanks for letting us know that.

Good luck to you.

What? You suggested something that's not what my band's about, and when I tell you that, you give me this sarcastic crap.

Most of the places bands in this scene play are not really bars, they are dedicated music venues. They don't have a regular clientele that they hire bands to entertain, the bands are the event.

I could play in a bar band to entertain drunks, but that WOULD be mainly about the money for me. My main group is a black metal band. Obviously money is not our primary motivation for playing that kind of music, as the audience is pretty limited.

That said, we wouldn't pay to play or play a gig where our participation was free no matter how many people showed up. We understand the "you get paid depending on how many people show up to see you" model, because at the places that bands in the metal scene play, if nobody shows up to see the bands, the venue not only doesn't make any money, but actually loses money as they still have to pay the soundman and other staff. If they booked us and some other bands on a Friday night and nobody showed up, I would understand them being pissed, because they could have booked someone else and not lost money. But if we pack the place, we expect some money.

[Richland123]

Since my band never plays for any type of door deals and only for guaranteed amounts, outside of booking lots of festivals and private events, over the last eight years, I have started to book us mostly at private clubs and bars that never charge a cover anyway and always pay a set amount. These places usually raise their drink prices to help pay for the bands in lieu of a cover charge. Most private clubs have entertainment as a way to provide events for their existing members and attract new members. Also, since members pay an annual dues, they do not have a cover charge for bands. These places don't have to worry about offering door deals and know what they will be paying out in advance and we know what we will get. We have on a few occasions taken a cut in pay if a crowd is very low due to bad weather, etc. to help out a place that books us often.

[denhou1974]

Originally Posted by Sartori

What? You suggested something that's not what my band's about, and when I tell you that, you give me this sarcastic crap.

Most of the places bands in this scene play are not really bars, they are dedicated music venues. They don't have a regular clientele that they hire bands to entertain, the bands are the event.

I could play in a bar band to entertain drunks, but that WOULD be mainly about the money for me. My main group is a black metal band. Obviously money is not our primary motivation for playing that kind of music, as the audience is pretty limited.

That said, we wouldn't pay to play or play a gig where our participation was free no matter how many people showed up. We understand the "you get paid depending on how many people show up to see you" model, because at the places that bands in the metal scene play, if nobody shows up to see the bands, the venue not only doesn't make any money, but actually loses money as they still have to pay the soundman and other staff. If they booked us and some other bands on a Friday night and nobody showed up, I would understand them being pissed, because they could have booked someone else and not lost money. But if we pack the place, we expect some money.

I totally understand.

Again, my post was about why I don't like cover charges. If your band is not about the money then why are we discussing money at all?

I can go see David Allen Coe, Clutch, or Les Claypool for $10-$20. I'm not going to pay the same amount to see a local band. That's my point.

[Sartori]

Originally Posted by denhou1974

I totally understand.

Again, my post was about why I don't like cover charges. If your band is not about the money then why are we discussing money at all?

I can go see David Allen Coe, Clutch, or Les Claypool for $10-$20. I'm not going to pay the same amount to see a local band. That's my point.

Any of those would cost at least $20 here.

Shows with local bands (usually four or five of them on the bill) are usually $8-$12

[seacouch]

Everyone I talk to (musicians) say that they have fewer gigs this year than last. We've seen a few local clubs that have been music mainstays for years either stop offering live music or close altogether this year. And many of the remaining clubs that do still offer live music are reducing the pay for bands (prior to that, the average local pay rate for bands hadn't increased since the 60's), or as others have said, are now expecting the band to do all the promo work. There are also much fewer casual gigs to go around these days. It's kinda scary.