I Don't Remember Getting Gigs Being This Tough

[Hector_G]

Originally Posted by phippsyg

How many other careers exist where you train your whole life in something, spend thousands of dollars on your work tools and equipment, just to get to the job and hope you are paid a drink, maybe a meal and a couple of bucks.

One of the TOP 5 All Time "Sad But True" statements I've ever heard.

[Quadcam]

I dont know how much it has to do with things since we just started the band and we arent to the point of gigging yet but, I was talking to a friend at work and shes a pretty popular DJ, so i asked how much she makes per show in the average sized club. She says "well at so and so club I get $200 for 10p-1am.

I said "oh I was just asking to get an idea of how much our band would make" and she said "well bands get $500/night but they arent really using bands much anymore, mostly DJ's and Karaoke cause it's cheaper. "

[Michelob_64]

Originally Posted by Smallmouth_Bass

Good point. If you're a regular gigging band, do these places really think that your friends and family are going to come to every show? We'll always have a few people there, but we offer a service to entertain their clientele.

In short, the answer is yes!! In my experiences around my town is that the bar expects the band to "save" an otherwise dismal night of business. They have little to no clientele and expect the band to pack the place.

The fact is that some of the bars would have virtually no one in them if the band didn't bring in some people. On the other hand, there are a select few bars that have a good client base and expect the band to augment the crowd, not bring 95% of it.

We have a few acts here that are guaranteed house fillers no matter where they go. They are $1500 a night, but like I said guaranteed to pack out the place.

I agree, my friends & family might come out once a month or every couple of months, but they aren't coming to each & every show!!!

Sorry stepping off the soap box

[EricF]

Originally Posted by Smallmouth_Bass

Good point. If you're a regular gigging band, do these places really think that your friends and family are going to come to every show? We'll always have a few people there, but we offer a service to entertain their clientele.

Originally Posted by Michelob_64

In short, the answer is yes!! In my experiences around my town is that the bar expects the band to "save" an otherwise dismal night of business. They have little to no clientele and expect the band to pack the place.

The fact is that some of the bars would have virtually no one in them if the band didn't bring in some people. On the other hand, there are a select few bars that have a good client base and expect the band to augment the crowd, not bring 95% of it.

We have a few acts here that are guaranteed house fillers no matter where they go. They are $1500 a night, but like I said guaranteed to pack out the place.

I agree, my friends & family might come out once a month or every couple of months, but they aren't coming to each & every show!!!

Sorry stepping off the soap box

Exactly. The kind of places we're currently playing (small bars, basically) don't have much in the way of "clientele". If you want more gigs or better time slots, you have to get people to show up to see your band, drink a lot, and make the bar money. They cater to music only in the sense that they have a stage avaialble to play on. Some will provide a PA and a soundman, some we have to run that ourselves, too. If we were doing 3+ hours of cover songs, it would be different situation and we'd be playing different places, but playing (almost all) originals puts on a different circuit.

[MatticusMania]

Originally Posted by EricF

Exactly. The kind of places we're currently playing (small bars, basically) don't have much in the way of "clientele". If you want more gigs or better time slots, you have to get people to show up to see your band, drink a lot, and make the bar money. They cater to music only in the sense that they have a stage avaialble to play on. Some will provide a PA and a soundman, some we have to run that ourselves, too. If we were doing 3+ hours of cover songs, it would be different situation and we'd be playing different places, but playing (almost all) originals puts on a different circuit.

Tis oh so true. Making money in an original band in the LA area is NOT an easy thing to do. Most bars pay nothing and dont charge a cover. The places that do charge a cover ($5-$10) only pay out after 25 people have shown up to see YOU (not the other bands, they ask at the door) So you could get 50 people to the venue and walk away with $125 to split between your whole band. Or, you could sell 100 tickets at $7 to play on the Sunset Strip. Cover bands, I hear, are still pulling in some cash. Ive never really relied on my bands to make money, so not much has changed really, its been like this for years. My friend plays the steel drum and often gets hired to play at events and such making decent money. I recently got involved with him, playing some backing tracks and keyboard, this weekend Im making $200 playing at a medical marijuana dispensary for 3 hours.

[Greyvagabond]

Originally Posted by dystopiate

I can only speak for original music, but here are some harsh realities that I think are getting glazed over:

Most live music venue owners/managers/promoters are not in it for the money (stay with me here). Original live music is a great way to put your business in jeapardy, NOT a great way to make money. I've considered opening a bar with live music and have run through a hundred best-case-senario numbers and they all suck -- hell, I'd be better off as a band member than a startup owner! These owners are typically people who have sunk a couple hundred thousand dollars and quit their day-jobs to involve themselves in a venture that has limited prospect of return. They're enthusiasts who often can't understand why bands can't understand that they're providing a space and backline; they just want a little return on their dream.

If they're not in it for the money, why are they: cheap, jerks, taking all my gig money, etc? Because it's the only way to keep the venue open and they sit through dozens of horrible bands with horrible "rockstar" attitudes each week.

Why don't they advertise more? Put some ads on the radio, cover an area with fliers, etc? Because that costs money and carries no return in most markets. Their business is filled with getting better rates from distributers, dealing with inspectors, putting new drivers in the cab someone blew out last night, etc. Your business is the band. If you don't do your own promotion, that's like the owner not cleaning up, stocking the bar, fixing the equipment, etc.

Why don't they return my phone calls? Because you're one of 100 bands that dropped something off that week and they think that: you suck, won't draw, aren't right for their venue, haven't heard of you, never listened to it because the other 99 jewelcases looked better, don't book bands with physical press kits and you never bothered to find that out, go on referal only, heard that you complain about how they run their business, etc.

To be fair, I get that some clubs are run fools who don't know how run a business (any business), and expect bands to eat their $#!% and make them money. To be fair, I've never played or heard of a venue like that that remained open wihtin 5 years of running their business in such a way (of course, a lot of them foolishly signed 5 yr leases and screwed themselves the day they put ink to paper).

My band makes money most nights. We generally stay in the black even with gas, hotels, downtime, etc. We're not going to get rich as an unsigned act playing bars and clubs, so we're not trying to. We also don't have much trouble getting guarantees because: we keep our rates reasonable, we understand that some nights pay better than others, some venues pay better than others, that there's more value in a relationship with the club than and extra $25-50 per member, do lots of cost-effective web-based promotion, have built a resume that opens doors, and are good to the owners. As a side note, the best pay we get is in our hometown at a small bar with no guarantee: we get a % of the door & 0.00% of the bar. Every town has a few bands like this and they are competing for the better slots and venues.

Is it fair? Who promised anyone fair? Being a band is like being a sales person: it's commission based and those who survive stay ahead of the curve, do their own marketing, understand building/retaining relationships, see the long game, and those at the top make a handsome sum and everyone else is struggling or quitting.

Edit: I read that back and it sounds horribly jaded, but I do believe that that's how it really is. It's a tough road to just get your head above water. It's important that you love the experience of being in a band if that's what you're going to do.

I know that's a long quote, but +1,000. This is exactly how the business works; rather than complaining about it, try and see things from the manager's perspective, and then adjust the things you CAN control. My band is an originals band; we have no problem getting gigs, and often have to turn down some (the whole pay-to-play thing doesn't fly with us). We have a near-monthly standing gig at a local bar (its awesome, so I won't tell you where it is; my secret!) with a $400 flat rate, usually with a $100 bonus at the end of the night. We also play colleges; if you're band is looking for a flat rate and built in audience, college are the place to be!!

[Tampabass]

Originally Posted by wkbryan

Dude, I don't think I'd admit that I had anything to do with treating folks like this.

+1

[Greyvagabond]

Originally Posted by txbasschik

FRAK THAT GARBAGE!!!

Cherie

Starbuck couldn't have said it any better herself. She's a musician, too.

[nothumb]

people basically just have to accept that there is much, much less demand for live music in bars and clubs than there used to be, the market is going to be smaller and more competitive and there's nothing you can do about it. the business model has changed, so you need to change too. original bands need to focus on ALL AGES VENUES, colleges, digital downloads, selling merch, playing label showcases, and networking if you ever want to get anywhere. i have friends who are playing NME and CMJ showcases and drawing a ton of people who still don't get much of a guarantee for most gigs. that's the way it is.

interest in cover bands is going to continue to decline as boomers get older. it's that simple. it's not just that DJs and karaoke and theme nights are cheaper for bars, it's that there is more demand for those things among younger people, especially in big cities, because it's what they've grown up with. there's still a market among certain demographics and in certain regions but it is going to keep shrinking. i'm sure this will elicit a bunch of "yeah, well, go **** yourself junior, my cover band gigs every weekend and we still get paid!" type responses. good for you. enjoy it while you can.

[BigOldHarry]

A few thoughts...

Gigs here in San Diego are either ~$300 for the band (casinos & better bars), ~$150-$200 (normal bars) or SQUAT for coffee houses, dive bars. For a 5 piece band, $300 is $60 for 4 sets - meaning 5+ hours work. That is *crap* wages. But at least it's playing.

I understand that LA pays better and has more venues - and a *much* better fan base. If you put together a decent cover band and actually *entertain*, folks will follow you. I hate to say it, but in San Diego folks don't care about music. Much as I loath LA, the scene there is like night & day compared to here.

Hey - Hutch1 - - I had heard the twin cities had a good music scene! I guess I was (sadly) misinformed...

[the-bass-man]

I have a similar tale of woe to share...

To be fair, it's not my fault because I wasn't anything to do with the booking of the gig, and it was the organisers who bailed in the end.
Well, I was supposed to be playing a Remembrance Gig (Big Band, Glenn Miller, that sort of vibe) in a local town hall. Well-reputed organisers, willing to pay a lot (I think it was about £1000 for a night, though there are 25 of us!) which would go towards a week tour in the south of France.
Got a letter the other day in regards to a rehearsal. This sadly clashed with work, so I had to go through a whole fuss with my manager to get it changed.
Having done this, I was psyched to get down to rehearsing. Only to find a letter on my door mat this morning telling me that the gig had been cancelled. The organisers hadn't given a reason, nothing at all, so we're all left high and dry without a gig for ages, I'm now in my boss's bad books for getting him to pull some strings and change a shift that needn't have been changed, and I've had to put quite a lot of time into this, which could've been spent revising for exams.

There, rant over for now.

Oli

[Kirkowitz]

Stuff like this is why every band needs a rich kid who's mom wants to pay for everything- right?

well....it worked for Van Halen

[tycobb73]

Originally Posted by dhomer

Here in western Michigan, we have a different reality. There is a booking agent here who has succeeded in signing up a vast majority of clubs to his contract. Which means as a club manager booking is one phone call. To us musicians, its the reality if you want to work more than a weekend every two months, you better get used to his business model and be prepared to do some #$%!! kissing. He's got things set up so if you happen to book one of his clubs on your own you STILL owe his cut. And heaven forbid if you go out on your own and book a club he didn't want you to play, he's been known to shorten your schedule.. a lot..

Not to say you can't make good money and work a lot with this guy, it helps if you have a female lead singer and can cover everything form Sinatra to AC/DC. He just has a not-so-good reputation amongst the musician rank-and-file around here, but the reality is, he has the gigs..

Yes he does have a lot of the bars, but Phalex and I play as much as we want without him so if you're willing to do your work you can avoid him.

[EricF]

Originally Posted by Kirkowitz

Stuff like this is why every band needs a rich kid who's mom wants to pay for everything- right?

well....it worked for Van Halen

Van Halen played a lot of crap-hole bar gigs, backyard parties, and whatever else they could find, too. In fact one of these crap-hole bars has become a common gig for us. We have our 3rd gig in 2 months there on May 27th - no cover and no pay, but it's a hometown gig for us, the room has great mojo, and we always have a blast.

[hentor]

Originally Posted by dystopiate

Most live music venue owners/managers/promoters are not in it for the money (stay with me here). Original live music is a great way to put your business in jeapardy, NOT a great way to make money.....It's a tough road to just get your head above water. It's important that you love the experience of being in a band if that's what you're going to do.

I agree with that, most of the live venue owners I've dealt with beyond the corporately owned bars are music lovers who want a place to listen to the music they love and provide exposure for acts that they like.

One of the local places that I've played at a few times has just announced that they are closing their doors. They got the lease on the place at a cut rate as the building was empty. He built a great venue that also provided decent food and drink, which caused a renaissance in the area which of course increased the rent to where he can no longer afford to stay in the building.

Destroyed by its own success? Hmmm.

It also doesn't help that there are so many bands who are willing to pay to play or undervalue their rates in order to be more "competetive".

If I had to rely on my own advertising, ticketing, promotion, etc. I'd just rent my own venue, get a permit myself and promote the gig on my own. Which I have done...that way all the risk is mine and all the take is mine.

[Hutch1]

Originally Posted by nothumb

people basically just have to accept that there is much, much less demand for live music in bars and clubs than there used to be, the market is going to be smaller and more competitive and there's nothing you can do about it. the business model has changed, so you need to change too. original bands need to focus on ALL AGES VENUES, colleges, digital downloads, selling merch, playing label showcases, and networking if you ever want to get anywhere. i have friends who are playing NME and CMJ showcases and drawing a ton of people who still don't get much of a guarantee for most gigs. that's the way it is.

interest in cover bands is going to continue to decline as boomers get older. it's that simple. it's not just that DJs and karaoke and theme nights are cheaper for bars, it's that there is more demand for those things among younger people, especially in big cities, because it's what they've grown up with. there's still a market among certain demographics and in certain regions but it is going to keep shrinking. i'm sure this will elicit a bunch of "yeah, well, go **** yourself junior, my cover band gigs every weekend and we still get paid!" type responses. good for you. enjoy it while you can.

Very, Very good point!! Everything is changing and everything traditional is being seriously challenged by technology.

For instance, how many people will really want to pay $15 for a music CD when they can get the MP3 version for significantly less? I know a guitar teacher who offered to put some songs on a CD for one of his guitar students, and the kid said, "I don't have anything at home to listen to that on." I found that rather shocking but it makes sense these days. For the younger generation perhaps the only reason to get a CD is if they want a physical booklet of liner notes.

And I guess it follows that the live music scene isn't what it was ten, twenty, thirty years ago. I suppose it won't be long before live DJs are replaced by the next wave of technology.

[bassbully]

I guess the thing i am saying is play for the love of it...for the art and to create.If you make some money along the way great if not ..oh well. The real thing is do you love it? do you enjoy it money or no money? This you have to ask yourself.

[Kirkowitz]

"The Real Frank Zappa Book" has some great content about musicians and money. Frank talks about nearly hanging it up for good when he saw !DUKE ELLINGTON! have to plead/beg for a small cash advance from a promoter. It is a brutal business no matter who you are.

[dystopiate]

Originally Posted by hentor

One of the local places that I've played at a few times has just announced that they are closing their doors. They got the lease on the place at a cut rate as the building was empty. He built a great venue that also provided decent food and drink, which caused a renaissance in the area which of course increased the rent to where he can no longer afford to stay in the building.

Destroyed by its own success? Hmmm.

That's disappointing to hear. The 5 yr. lease (I assume that's what he was on) is a classic trap for bars. It takes a few years to get the place humming, even under the best circumstances. If the owner gets everything going, the lessor can jack up the rent at the end of the lease term. I hope he can find another location nearby and that his hardwork won't be wasted.

[Din Of Win]

I haven't read the entire reply list, so i apologize if this has been covered already:


What has worked out for me in the past is just being nice and noticed. Sadly, the music industry is not exempt from the old addage: "It's not what you know, but who you know". Lame as it may be, i have found it a HELL of a lot easier and fruitfull making friends with bigger bands than it is with venues. On a few occations we had heard nothing from sending demos to venues, but when friends in bigger acts came arround and requested us, the venue came to US for the show(s).

If all that fails, honestly look into doing some DIY shows. Look for local VFW halls, bars, community spaces, garages, basements, etc... then put on your own show. Larger venues tend to be awash with buisness types... not musicians. But to be fair, they (usually) own these places to make a profit and can't REALLY be blamed for acting as such.


Hope it helps and good luck!!