i've never trusting a backline again

[Spoiled Grape]

Originally Posted by Dkerwood

Let me just completely clarify what I've said - I don't trust backline until I know exactly what it is. If the promoter doesn't know, the gear still goes in the car. If the promoter can't tell me about stage monitors, we'll throw a pair of those and an amp into the car.

I'll be the first to admit that we play more small shows than large shows, which is why I feel the way I do about backline. Too many times we've shown up for gigs with "provided PA and backline" and found a Kustom PA pushing 120W, a Peavey or Crate 12" bass combo, and some Japanese drum set with heads covered with packing tape from the 70s.

I can't believe, though, that a professional backline would be less than appropriate. Sometimes those boutique amps, however, are a little fussy...

I usually will try to bring my gear at every opportunity, even if I know it's being backlined, you never know what problems may arise. Also check to see what's going through the system. There have been a few shows where a dinky 100w crate would have done fine, since my sound was going through PA and the cab was only there for stage sound.

[JackANSI]

Originally Posted by mattq

so my band tonight played a battle of the bands. cheesy, i know, but it was still fun. i brought my head with me tonight just in case i didn't trust what they had in store for me. i was extra paranoid tonight because two days ago we played another club that had a backline for us that would have been great except that the amp kept cutting out on me whenever i clipped the gain. it was a carvin r600(?). and the carvin stigma aside, it actually sounded really good paired up with the big 8x10 they had. i was pleasantly surprised. but when we started playing, i kept noticing that whenever i hit a note hard on one of our more rockin songs i wouldn't hear that note. extremely frustrating because my swr 350 doesn't cut out when i clip, it just kinda distorts which i kinda like. flash forward to tonight. i bring my head with me, but am relieved to find an ashdown abm500 evo paired with a abm410. i had even wanted to try this amp out. awesome, right? it was until i started playing it. i got like 30 seconds of tone twiddling before we started and couldn't find anything good which isn't the amps fault, but was the start of a larger frustration. we start playing our opening song which is really rockin and lo and behold i'm nowhere to be heard. i turn to look at the little meter and see the needle go into the red whenever i can't hear myself. that pissed me right off. i fixed the gain after the first song, but the damage had been done and i looked like an amateur. i even checked to make sure i was in the right input for my active bass. so do all amps cut signal when you clip the gain except for mine or what?

we didn't win either. still fun and we met great people, but i'm never trusting a backline again. two gigs in a row!!!!

Only a few words of advice.

1. If you want distortion, use a pedal or something meant for it. Trust me. You can dial up your sound with pedals and rack units then use anything they throw at you and it will sound like you want. I can plug through my rack into any amp, level the EQ, and adjust the gain/volumes and it sounds pretty much like I want. You will have to use backlines in the future, so be prepared. My whole rig takes roughly 30 seconds to setup and I'm ready to play thanks to this and practicing the motions. If your rig is complex, a checklist done in order will help greatly. I usually spend more time finding an outlet than setting up and sound checking. (including load-in/out this takes a total of 3-5 minutes from arriving to sound check). Put locking wheels on your cabinet or bring a good hand-truck, your back and hands will thank you for it. Bring a good long bike chain to lock your rig to something if there are other bands playing, your wallet will thank you for it. Plus you can use the time you save to help the drummer, and he will thank you for it as will just about everyone else. It sucks waiting for a drummer to setup

2. If the amp is not loud enough, get them to pour more bass into your monitor. If there are no monitors, then move closer to your bass rig or closer to the mains. If there is no PA, deal with it the best you can without killing the rig you're plugged into. Respect the equipment, it is what makes or breaks you as you have noticed. If all else fails, get an in-ear wireless monitor so you can at least hear yourself in any situation. In the situations I've witnessed, even if you could barely hear the bass in the crowd you can still tell if the bass is right or wrong.

3. If there is a PA never ~try~ to be louder than the house from the backline. The sound guy will murder your tone to get the whole band sounding equal/the way he wants.

4. Do like everyone says, befriend the sound person. They are your ally not an enemy. I don't care how drunk, how stupid, or whatever he/she is. This can also play in your favor later since bar owners tend to ask the sound person for input on whether or not to have you back again.

5. Things will never be perfect. Plan accordingly. If you have questions, ask. Play a little stupid sometimes you learn more that way.

[Spoiled Grape]

Originally Posted by JackANSI

I usually spend more time finding an outlet than setting up and sound checking.

Never has more truth been spoken. I once played a club in a very small farm area in central california, where the only power output I could plug into was *on the ceiling*.

Now I bring a 20 foot extension cable with me everywhere.

[lonote]

Maybe I've been lucky, but the backlines I've used at festivals and large venues have been at least serviceable and usually something like an SVT with an 8 X 10" or an Eden with a 4 X 10." I always bring my rig along "just in case" but I've never had to pull it out and use it because of a sub-par backline. I also make a habit of schmoozing the soundman.

[JackANSI]

Originally Posted by Spoiled Grape

Never has more truth been spoken. I once played a club in a very small farm area in central california, where the only power output I could plug into was *on the ceiling*.

Now I bring a 20 foot extension cable with me everywhere.

lol! Similar thing happened at this place in ardmore, pa I played at.. all the outlets, all 8 of them, were on the ceiling, above the drum riser.. luckily the house had plent of cords.

When I got home I promptly rewired the furman with a 18' cord.

[Vandelay]

I did a nationwide "Battle of the Corporate Bands" this year (http://www.namm.com/fortunebandbattle), and it was a total blast. (We came in 3rd).

But if you're going to do a battle, or indeed any gig where you're expected to share the stage with multiple bands in one night, you're going to have to learn to deal with backlines. It just goes with the territory. And sometimes you'll have tgo play thru gear that doesn't meet your standard.

Just do the best you can. Take time to figure out how the amp works, and continue to tweak it until you get a usuable tone.

Also, beware in these "battle" situations -- in some cases, the bassist right before you will change all the knob settings after he's done, just to make life more difficult for you. It's a competition, after all.

[srxplayer]

Originally Posted by scottbass

It's too bad I can't tell how old you are from your profile - I hope I'm not criticizing an opinionated (and WRONG) kid here. With an attitude like you just expressed, you will go NOWHERE in the music business. Everything is a compromise, unless it's just you recording only you all by yourself in your very own studio.

Do I really need to explain the time and consistency issues that cause some clubs to furnish a backline?

We just replaced a member of our band for just this reason. We were playing a prestigious all-day and all-night show that had backline equipment. The concept here is they wanted the bands to set up and tear down fast so the next band could be ready to go with only a 15 to 30 minute gap. The sound guys didn't have to mess around setting all the trims for a whole new mess of amps, drum mics, etc. One member of our band threw exactly the kind of prim donna tantrum you just described - "If I can't play my own gear I'm walking out". We had to beg and plead like little children to get the sound guys to allow him to use his own gear.

Playing live is stressful (and fun), but the rest of us agreed we don't want this kind of stress from one of our own members. That show was the last he played with us.

You will experience this same reaction if you cop this kind of an attitude. That's a fact. Yes, we all want to sound the very best each and every time we play, but it's not always possible. Throwing a little kid tantrum about a backline will not contribute to your success as a live performer.

Yeah,what he said...(+1) If a venue goes to the expense & trouble of providing a backline then they do take things pretty seriously.

[Dkerwood]

I'm reminded of the only time that I've run a show that required backline.

My church was doing a big battle of the bands competition - months of preparation, sponsors, etc, etc, etc... And I was determined to make it better than those terrible botb's that we all hear and wince about.

We worked out the backline - drums and bass - and I had a buddy of mine bringing in his SWR rig. Well, about a week before the show, he ended up selling the rig so that he could pay his rent for the month. With every other penny of the budget allocated, I decided that my only option now for backline was to use my 300W Peavey Combo 300.

Surprisingly, it was more than sufficient! We ran a line out to the PA since we were using subs and all, and the girl running sound ended up having to turn the house mix for bass OFF because the amp was so loud.

Of course, they were all pushing my amp HARD and the built in speaker protection was compressing nicely (although I winced as I kept seeing that red light blinking).

I dunno. Doesn't really have much to do with this thread, but I thought I'd share anyway... lol... ;-)

[Dr. Feelgood]

Wow, controversial topic. All I have to say is that I'm happy so long as I can hear myself and be heard, even if that means using someone else's stuff.
If you're clipping the amp and being cut off then the only thing to do is to adjust your playing.

[bevel19]

Most gigs that require a provided backline usually have a pretty decent front of house.Subs,etc....... Many times Ive done gigs where the amp has been a very old peavey combo or even an original valve fender bassman at one gig.But the FOH kicked serious butt.Instead of moaning about the stage sound, I just turn it off and enjoy the sound of the subs doing their thing.Sure it's not the same as hearing it from behind but it's usually only for about ten songs or so.If you and your fellow players know your stuff well enough it shouldn't matter!

[BassSurfer]

i have a backline 1x15 added to my rig and no problems at all it sounds good to me

[jive1]

For those who are against backlines because it will mess with your sound........


How the hell do you know what you sound like from the audience? Seriously.
If you haven't gone out there with a wireless and listened for yourself, you can't know first hand.

I can't say it enough, WHAT YOU HEAR ON STAGE IS NOT WHAT THE AUDIENCE HEARS! Acoustics alter the tone of the bass frequencies as it travels through the audience. That's why they have soundmen out in the audience and one on the stage. The guy on the stage mixes the monitors for you, while the guy in the audience mixes the mains for the audience. The bass will sound different from 10 feet away vs 100' away vs 100' away in a corner of a venue vs the far left corner nearest the stage. On most stages, your amp is on the floor pointing towards your legs. But, if the stage is elevated, it means that the cab is pointed at the ears of audience members in the front row. Which means you barely hear your bass, the audience in the front hears it loud and clear with all the mids you love, while the guys in the cheap seats hear "BOOM-THUD".

[Dkerwood]

Originally Posted by BassSurfer

i have a backline 1x15 added to my rig and no problems at all it sounds good to me

Erm... please do us a favor and read the thread before posting.

We're talking about ACTUAL backline - ie, house amps. Not the GK line of amps and cabs.